Fender Rumble Club

[G-Dog]

I usually try to remain a little humble on this site but ... ... I work production at a venue ... ... More amps and powered speakers than anyone would care to deal with. Miles of cable. A lot of our gear is old, ... ... So usually when I comment on gear it is from a place of hands on experience. ... I have have no problem admitting I’m a bit out of touch with the newer standards of equipment and it’s great to see they have made stuff even harder to break. ... ... I’m dropping out of this conversation because it’s starting to feel too much like work right now.

No hard feelings.
Cheers.

I understand, AK, and appreciate your position. Thank you for explaining, I was unaware of your hands on gear background. I apologize if I made you feel attacked or uncomfortable in any way. I firmly believe that this site, and especially this thread, should be a safe haven for civil discussion and exchange of ideas. In that regard, respectful disagreement is a very valid and important position, we should have more of it. What a boring world if everyone always agreed! (Cue The Leggo Movie's *Everything Is Awesome!")

I'm very glad you have no hard feelings. Please do not hesitate to comment again on absolutely anything you wish here! Your participation is valued.

 

[John D Harris]

I usually try to remain a little humble on this site but I’m going to pass this time.
I work production at a venue that takes ups an entire city block.
We have 4 stages, a 2100, a 800, a 350, and a 100 person seating capacity spaces.
All stages have lighting, sound, fly, and rigging systems.
More amps and powered speakers than anyone would care to deal with.
Miles of cable.
A lot of our gear is old, some new.

Add to that I was born before the internet and have been working in the entertainment industry for a few decades now.
So usually when I comment on gear it is from a place of hands on experience.
As I have have no problem admitting I’m a bit out of touch with the newer standards of equipment and it’s great to see they have made stuff even harder to break. I cherish learning new stuff and am always happy to learn more.

To wrap things up.
So I will respectfully disagree with you statement and will leave it at that.
I’m dropping out of this conversation because it’s starting to feel too much like work right now.

No hard feelings.
Cheers.

I would never contradict your experience and I appreciate your attitude - I did not mean my comment as an attack.
[Online communication can be a snake pit.]

That said, well designed amplifiers from even 25 years ago (I'm thinking of the Crown Macro-Tech power amps) were almost bullet-proof.

So the technology was there.

I'm sure that back then, there were plenty of companies that cut corners to make amplifiers less expensive and as a result more susceptible to damage from abuse.

Today, IMHO, even mid-level audio/musical gear is going to be hard to destroy under the types of conditions we're talking about (including clowns on drugs) - caveat: almost any company these days can produce a "one out of a hundred" lemon unit.
The ultra-cheap stuff, I would not put into the same category of durability.

My main point was, people should make sure the gear they are using or wanting to use is up to the task at hand, because I do not suggest running any amplifier wide open in any situation.

It's all good, AK Bass Guy, I appreciate your input and your attitude!

 

[toughluck]

Oh, I see! Rather than the over rated cab, you're talking about the "underpowered amp myth".

Well, agedhorse is right as usual, and Rod Elliot provides a bit more background about it here: How Much Power? but it's not a complete myth.

Take RMS power of a pure sine to a resistive load. Urms=√2÷2×Umax; Irms=√2÷2×Imax; Prms=Urms×Irms=√2×√2÷2÷2×Umax×Imax=½×Umax×Imax
For a square wave to a resistive load (perfect clipping scenario), RMS voltage and current is equal to max voltage and current (ignoring transients). What it translates to is the lack of that √2÷2 limit on Umax and Imax. How much is that?
Well, not much. Pmax is just equal to Umax×Imax, which is twice the power into a purely resistive load.

So a 400 W amplifier delivering a pure square wave to an 800 W cab is effectively driving it at 800 W. Absent thermal protection, it would be killing itself in the process, though, faster than it would be killing the speaker.

 

[toughluck]

Something to add to my previous post: you can absolutely cause a thermal failure of a speaker voice coil by running DC current through it, but there are two things of note:
1. RMS power rating for a speaker already considers heating from resistive load.
2. Every* crossover to a tweeter will have a capacitor wired in series. It's not going to pass any DC current to the horn.
*) I mean, one could conceivably design an RL crossover, but it would probably be the stupidest crossover design ever. If cost is an important consideration, an RC filter will get the same job done at a much lower price and in less bulk and weight.

--

On another note, I've got a (barely used) Fender Rumble 115 cab on its way! I've got a 40 W amplifier (Bantamp Badass) to use with it, but I'm now looking at other amplifiers, too... It would really be nice if Fender offered a modeling amp head or at least a Studio/Stage preamp like we dreamed up before.

 

[RoxxNard]

TBH, have bandmates or friends do, or at least aid, the lifting for you. It isn't the amp. It is your lifting and past history of injury that are most concerning. You may still injure yourself with a smaller amp and less than perfect lifting technique. For most lifting situations, team lifts are much safer than a single person lift.

I was lifting 40lb bags of salt and thought about this chart. ty!

 

[AK Bass Guy]

Definitely want to think about that chart if you are still carrying around one these beasts too.

If I recall correctly they are in the 90lbs range.

 

[mixbus]

Yup around 90lbs of tube & transformer goodness... Glad I stopped using one years ago. Still remember the settings I would start with when I gigged.

While it was a heavy brick of a thing, I did find it easier to move up a flight of stairs than the 8x10 cabinet that went with it!

 

[tom-g]

Well, agedhorse is right as usual, and Rod Elliot provides a bit more background about it here: How Much Power? but it's not a complete myth.

Take RMS power of a pure sine to a resistive load. Urms=√2÷2×Umax; Irms=√2÷2×Imax; Prms=Urms×Irms=√2×√2÷2÷2×Umax×Imax=½×Umax×Imax
For a square wave to a resistive load (perfect clipping scenario), RMS voltage and current is equal to max voltage and current (ignoring transients). What it translates to is the lack of that √2÷2 limit on Umax and Imax. How much is that?
Well, not much. Pmax is just equal to Umax×Imax, which is twice the power into a purely resistive load.

So a 400 W amplifier delivering a pure square wave to an 800 W cab is effectively driving it at 800 W. Absent thermal protection, it would be killing itself in the process, though, faster than it would be killing the speaker.

It is a complete myth. As you clearly described, it’s too much power. That might be the result of not bringing adequate gear for the gig, but it has nothing to do with underpowering, it is overpowering.

 

[GonePlaid]

Yup around 90lbs of tube & transformer goodness... Glad I stopped using one years ago. Still remember the settings I would start with when I gigged.

While it was a heavy brick of a thing, I did find it easier to move up a flight of stairs than the 8x10 cabinet that went with it.

Like this?

 

[mixbus]

Like this?

Yep!

Mine was the flat back version. Would've been easier with the tilt back version that had a handle.

 

[GonePlaid]

Yep!

Mine was the flat back version. Would've been easier with the tilt back version that had a handle.

Mine too. Glad I sold it.

 

[mapleglo]

I used to have two of the tilt back versions. Got rid of both.

 

[toughluck]

It is a complete myth. As you clearly described, it’s too much power. That might be the result of not bringing adequate gear for the gig, but it has nothing to do with underpowering, it is overpowering.

That's absolutely what it is. I wanted to explain where the myth might come from and why people misunderstand it so much. In any case, a way underpowered amplifier feeding a high power handling cab is always going to kill itself before it can do any damage to the speaker.

And Rod Elliot has an excellent article about that for anyone who wants to understand this topic better:

Why Do Tweeters Blow When Amplifiers Distort?

ESP - The Audio Pages. Why Do Tweeters Blow When Amplifiers Distort? Find out what really happens when amplifiers cause tweeters to fail.

sound-au.com

He has the same conclusion: it's too much pwoer that kills speakers, not too little.

 

[toughluck]

On another note, I've got a (barely used) Fender Rumble 115 cab on its way! I've got a 40 W amplifier (Bantamp Badass) to use with it, but I'm now looking at other amplifiers, too... It would really be nice if Fender offered a modeling amp head or at least a Studio/Stage preamp like we dreamed up before.

I picked up the cab on Thursday.

First impressions: very light and pretty compact considering the 15" speaker.

I plugged it in immediately when I got home. It's just awesome. Even with a modest 40 W amplifier, it has simply incredible capability to reach very low frequencies with plenty of authority.

I realized there's a way I can use my Rumble Studio 40 with it: I'll need an amplifier, but I can feed it the post-effect signal from the combo. I could even use the combo as my monitoring speaker and the cab as the audience-facing main speaker. But a modeling head (or even a modeling preamp) would be even better.

 

[G-Dog]

I picked up the ... (barely used) Fender Rumble 115 ... cab on Thursday. ... ... I plugged it in immediately when I got home. It's just awesome. Even with a modest 40 W amplifier ... ...

I realized there's a way I can use my Rumble Studio 40 with it: I'll need an amplifier, but I can feed it the post-effect signal from the [Studio 40] combo. I could even use the combo as my monitoring speaker and the cab as the audience-facing main speaker.

Right-o, toughie! But, remember, the Studio 40's post-effect signal, from the Left (Mono) FX Send jack, has a fixed low level and won't be amped much into another amp's FX Return jack. You need to plug that FX Send signal into the other amp's Input jack and turn down that amp's Gain and EQ to keep from overdriving it's preamp.

 

[agedhorse]

Well, agedhorse is right as usual, and Rod Elliot provides a bit more background about it here: How Much Power? but it's not a complete myth.

Take RMS power of a pure sine to a resistive load. Urms=√2÷2×Umax; Irms=√2÷2×Imax; Prms=Urms×Irms=√2×√2÷2÷2×Umax×Imax=½×Umax×Imax
For a square wave to a resistive load (perfect clipping scenario), RMS voltage and current is equal to max voltage and current (ignoring transients). What it translates to is the lack of that √2÷2 limit on Umax and Imax. How much is that?
Well, not much. Pmax is just equal to Umax×Imax, which is twice the power into a purely resistive load.

So a 400 W amplifier delivering a pure square wave to an 800 W cab is effectively driving it at 800 W. Absent thermal protection, it would be killing itself in the process, though, faster than it would be killing the speaker.

I have to be right and really understand this down to the gnat’s ass.

When selling thousands of expensive speakers a year with a long warranty, you don’t get many opportunities to be wrong…

 

[pyrat56host]

Well...I gotta say, I really love the new Rumble 800c. I will be purchasing an extension cabinet. I'm leaning toward the Rumble 4x10 or 2x10...I guess my decision will come down to the great advice of the other Rumble-folk and my own insane and tedious research. It's a great sound!!

 

[Stranger Danger]

I just became aware of the new ivory Rumble 500. I like the look of it, but not enough to wanna buy one. I really liked the look of the Limited Edition tan/wheat Rumble 200 that they made a few years ago, and I wish I would have bought one of those while they were still available. I wish (like many other bass players) that Fender would make a few more of the tan/wheat Rumbles, and/or a Rumble in blonde with oxblood grill cloth (like the Tone Master Twin Reverb) and/or a Rumble in lacquered tweed with brown/gold grill cloth (like the Tone Master '59 Bassman). I'd buy any of those in a heartbeat.

Also, I have a question about the weight of these Fender Class D bass combo amps. How come the Tone Master '59 Bassman (4 x 10") weighs less (32 lb) than the Rumble 500 (2 x 10") (37.5 lb)? I realize that the Tone Master '59 Bassman may be marketed more as a guitar amp (it has a built-in spring reverb), but would the Tone Master '59 Bassman be a decent bass amp?

It definitely would not be a decent bass amp.

 

[G-Dog]

I just became aware of the new ivory Rumble 500. I like the look of it, but not enough to wanna buy one. I really liked the look of the Limited Edition tan/wheat Rumble 200 that they made a few years ago, and I wish I would have bought one of those while they were still available. I wish (like many other bass players) that Fender would make a few more of the tan/wheat Rumbles, and/or a Rumble in blonde with oxblood grill cloth (like the Tone Master Twin Reverb) and/or a Rumble in lacquered tweed with brown/gold grill cloth (like the Tone Master '59 Bassman). I'd buy any of those in a heartbeat. ... ... ...

Such cosmetics can be changed to your liking.​

... ... ... Also, I have a question about the weight of these Fender Class D bass combo amps. How come the Tone Master '59 Bassman (4 x 10") weighs less (32 lb) than the Rumble 500 (2 x 10") (37.5 lb)?

The Tone Master '59 Bassman has an open back, reducing it's weight.​

​

​

​

... ... ... I realize that the Tone Master '59 Bassman may be marketed more as a guitar amp (it has a built-in spring reverb), but would the Tone Master '59 Bassman be a decent bass amp?

At very low volumes the Tone Master '59 Bassman might just be a "decent" bass practice amp. But probably not very bassy beyond that, due to the open back and 45 watt simulated output.​

 

[Miles_ONeal]

Well...I gotta say, I really love the new Rumble 800c. I will be purchasing an extension cabinet. I'm leaning toward the Rumble 4x10 or 2x10...I guess my decision will come down to the great advice of the other Rumble-folk and my own insane and tedious research. It's a great sound!!

Advice here will vary. All the options have fans!