Flat -> Meaning

[rpsands]

Remember that nothing flat comes out of your bass either Different pickups, woods, strings, plucking style, etc. produces different eq curves and different amounts of sustain and so on.

Turn knobs til' it sounds good IN THE ROOM is the rule I try to follow (if I'm not mic'd or di'd). If I'm just stage monitoring, I turn knobs until everyone can hear clearly and it sounds good to me.

 

[will33]

Search up a thread called "SWR Aural Enhancer Mod" . A few posts down is before and after response charts. The before shows the built in preamp voicing with all the knobs set flat, it's anything but flat. The after is an example of flat response. This only applies to the amp. Your pickups, speakers and the room your playing in still affect the response of the end product (sound) you are actually hearing and it's still not flat. What most people percieve as flat is not and often times truly flat doesn't sound that good. Making a flat amp or speaker is only removing one of many variables.

 

[Muttleybass]

I'm a little confused, I admit.

I get it when you say that flat is when there's no cuts or boosts, so assuming I'm using my little combo, turning all knobs to 0 will make it flat.

Some tone/EQs go from -10 - 0 - +10. Then "0" would be flat. If your EQ/tone goes from 0 - 10, then 5 would be flat. Flat is in the middle.

But what does it have to do with the speakers, location or the room?

Placement of the speakers can change how a room sounds and the frequencies that are prevailent. It means if you start with your EQ "flat", you may have to add bass/treble depending on where your speakers are. Of course, your EQ would no longer be flat.

Some time ago another TBer said that to try out a bass you should set everything to flat. Then I figured that, for instance, using my little 15w combo, if I turn everything down to 0, the master volume can be next to MAX and it wont sound very loud. So I started thinking, is that really what flat means? "How can I try a bass if I can hear it right" I thought back then.

You should always start with an amp flat (tones in the middle) to see what it sounds like without anything added/removed, then adjust to what you like. As an example, I would bet that your little combo sounds pretty "middy". Start with the EQ "flat", then dial back the mid. Probably crank the bass a bit.

 

[JTE]

If your EQ/tone goes from 0 - 10, then 5 would be flat. Flat is in the middle.

NOPE!!! People gotta quit saying this!!! Unless you know the way the amp was designed, there's simply no way to tell what combination of settings is FLAT!!. If the EQ knobs are boost/cut with 0 at the center then yes, you can presume that at least the EQ section is flat with the knobs set there.

But to extrapolate to all the other amps out there in the world that don't use boost/cut with 0db clearly indicated that they are flat at 5 is misleading and wrong. As has been repeated frequently, Fender tone stacks are nowhere near flat with the knobs set to 5 and in fact closest to flat with them set to 2 10 2.

John

 

[teleharmonium]

I would say it's beneficial for a bassist to have a realistic idea of what the built in frequency response curves are for their bass, amp, and speaker cabinets, and what settings in the EQ stack in their amp are closest to flat. Otherwise, you may be using cumulative settings that are counterproductive, or adding more noise than necessary.

IMO some of the issues that many bass players experience getting a consistent perceived volume come from not having such an understanding and having all of these built in curves affecting us. It partly explains why heavy compression is so often needed on bass and also why it can sometimes work so much better to just go direct into a compressor.

It's just like low end PA and recording gear where there is so much built in high frequency boosting in both the mic and the preamp that it ends up sounding like crap. Manufacturers get a bit too clever for our own good sometimes. One intelligently set EQ in a signal chain can be a great thing. Two or more, not so much. You're hyping your hype.

If I want a big sound and I have a vintage voiced passive bass, I might want an EQ giving me +4 db centered at 125 about 1 octave wide. But I don't need to add to that same range in my bass with an active EQ, and again with the tone stack in my amp, and again with a big bump in that range in my cabinet due to the drivers and the porting. That would just be a boomy mess. But I've seen exactly that sort of thing in bass rigs many times; or the other problem, which is where the player has all those EQs in use at the same time, each one trying to correct the excesses of the previous one.

I like amps with bypassable EQ stacks, minimal EQ stacks, or no EQ at all, and wish they were all able to be bypassed with a switch.

 

[Muttleybass]

As has been said above, you are confusing 'neutral' (i.e., no boost or cut to the EQ) with 'flat', which means that every frequency within the range of the system has basically the same volume.

Setting an EQ 'neutral' might or might not make an amp 'flat', since as has been said above, many all in one bass amps have a built in EQ curve.

Hmm... I always thought "nuetral" WAS flat. Yes, every amp has it's own EQ curve... There's no such thing as a "flat" frequency response from an instrument thru an ampliflier.
That's why you start with the EQ flat and adjust it.

 

[KJung]

I would say it's beneficial for a bassist to have a realistic idea of what the built in frequency response curves are for their bass, amp, and speaker cabinets, and what settings in the EQ stack in their amp are closest to flat. Otherwise, you may be using cumulative settings that are counterproductive, or adding more noise than necessary.

IMO some of the issues that many bass players experience getting a consistent perceived volume come from not having such an understanding and having all of these built in curves affecting us. It partly explains why heavy compression is so often needed on bass and also why it can sometimes work so much better to just go direct into a compressor.

It's just like low end PA and recording gear where there is so much built in high frequency boosting in both the mic and the preamp that it ends up sounding like crap. Manufacturers get a bit too clever for our own good sometimes. One intelligently set EQ in a signal chain can be a great thing. Two or more, not so much. You're hyping your hype.

If I want a big sound and I have a vintage voiced passive bass, I might want an EQ giving me +4 db centered at 125 about 1 octave wide. But I don't need to add to that same range in my bass with an active EQ, and again with the tone stack in my amp, and again with a big bump in that range in my cabinet due to the drivers and the porting. That would just be a boomy mess. But I've seen exactly that sort of thing in bass rigs many times; or the other problem, which is where the player has all those EQs in use at the same time, each one trying to correct the excesses of the previous one.

I like amps with bypassable EQ stacks, minimal EQ stacks, or no EQ at all, and wish they were all able to be bypassed with a switch.

On paper, I agree with you. However, you would never really be able to know these things. The only way to scope an entire system (speaker, amp, preamp, everything) is to subject the system to one of the real time frequency analyzers with a pink noise generator. The problem with that is that it would be totally 'room specific' (and of course, would be totally shot to hell when you replace the pink noise with an ever changing, organic, dynamic electric bass input signal and a players technique).

A much better task for a bassist would be to determine what tone sounds good to them, and then generate some sort of baseline with their rig, bass and technique (which will all interact in complex ways with their signal chain), and then try a number of rigs (cabs, heads, etc.) to see which on gets you there easiest. Once that happens, things get very easy, using EQ to keep that 'tone in your head' relaively the same across rooms.

 

[KJung]

Hmm... I always thought "nuetral" WAS flat. Yes, every amp has it's own EQ curve... There's no such thing as a "flat" frequency response from an instrument thru an ampliflier.
That's why you start with the EQ flat and adjust it.

Again, flat has a very specific, accepted meaning.... all frequencies within the system's range at the same volume (plus or minus a couple db).

I use the term 'neutral' to more accurately talk about 'all the EQ knobs set to zero boost or cut, and all voicing filters off. This is, to oversimplify, the 'sound in the amp designer's head', and is a good starting point for evaluating an amp. However, most bass amps set 'neutral' are far, far from putting a 'flat' frequency response into a speaker.

Again, just think of 'flat' as one of an infinite number of EQ curves, one not being particularly better than another (at least for bass guitar backline). And, again, once you hook up the amp to a speaker, EVERYTHING changes. Interestingly, an extremely voiced head (even when set 'neutral') and a speaker with lots of peaks and valleys in its response, can combine to result in a frequency response that can be very pleasing, and not have many huge peaks and valleys.

 

[Muttleybass]

NOPE!!! People gotta quit saying this!!! Unless you know the way the amp was designed, there's simply no way to tell what combination of settings is FLAT!!

Respectfully disagree. In the context you are talking and the frequency response of each and every amplifier, there is no such thing as FLAT. That's why some people like GK and some Mesa. They appreciate the frequency response they get from their amp of choice.

In the context that the OP was asking, an amplifier that is set "flat" means the EQ is down the middle.

Even with the respected recording engineers that I have worked with and going direct they all tell me to start with my bass tones set "flat", they set the board EQ "flat", their amp emulators are set "flat". Everything neutral (IE: flat). Then they add the tone/colour as they see fit.


"Set your EQ flat, then we'll go from there".

 

[teleharmonium]

On paper, I agree with you. However, you would never really be able to know these things. The only way to scope an entire system (speaker, amp, preamp, everything) is to subject the system to one of the real time frequency analyzers with a pink noise generator. The problem with that is that it would be totally 'room specific' (and of course, would be totally shot to hell when you replace the pink noise with an ever changing, organic, dynamic electric bass input signal and a players technique).

Oh, I don't think it's unknowable. The room will always matter, but fixed frequency response characteristics of amps (separately from their tone stacks) and cabinets and the frequencies and characteristics of an EQ are all quantifiable things that are probably listed in the documentation that came with the gear or available from a google search.

It's not that you need to know in a very exact way what is happening and running spectral analysis all the time. I just mean you should understand in a general way if your cabinet (for ex.) has a big built in boost in a certain range, and you should think of all of the EQs in your signal chain and get to know them. This is useful no matter what the room is doing. That knowledge will help me understand what I need to change and in which EQ I should do it, to deal with room variance. Because the room is the only variable here; the bass, amp, tone stack, and cabinet have not changed since the previous gig somewhere else.

When I'm recording music, the only reasons I would possibly have to use more than one EQ in a signal chain while tracking are that for some reason I don't have enough cut or boost available in one unit - which I can't recall ever happening - or if I have two great sounding Pultecs and I'm running a vocal track through both of them gratuitously for extra magic (which has never happened because I don't have any Pultecs or other great analog EQs).

This sort of thing factors into mic and preamp selection as well. I know most of that gear that I own very well, I could probably tell you from memory with reasonable accuracy how bright my condenser mics are in order. Knowing this, I can then judge if it makes sense that I should need to lift the highs on a certain mic or source, or why a certain combination might be overly bright or dark, or thin or fat in the mids. And that means I can also make an educated guess as to which piece to change and which one to use instead, without having to try everything I own as if I had just landed on a strange new planet with a recording studio on it. Then I can get to where I want to be quickly and get back to concerning myself with the song.

I look at a bass rig the same way. I want to know where the built in significant cuts and boosts are in the pieces in my rig, and I have no real use for more than one good EQ anywhere in the chain. Consecutive EQs tend to make things sound worse rather than better. Knowing exactly what you want and how your stuff works and using all your stuff intelligently and holistically brings the one remaining variable (the room) into focus.

 

[JimmyM]

Way too much thought getting in the way of getting stuff done, if you ask me. Plug in, set all knobs at noon, cut and boost as you see fit from there, play bass, get chicks, go home.

 

[Passinwind]

In the context that the OP was asking, an amplifier that is set "flat" means the EQ is down the middle.

Not in my world. It means set to the settings that come closest to making a flat frequency response line. Check with your recording engineer friends on what they really mean...

The yellow curve in this graph represents a BMax preamp with EQ at noon for bass, mids, and treble. Are you really going to argue that anyone should call that flat in the context of just the preamp? Really? Doesn't 1-10-1(the green curve) look a lot more like "flat?"

Link Removed

 

[BurningSkies]

I think that many of us who have played for a long time take it for granted that almost no amps are tonally 'flat' when the knobs are set to the neutral position (for most people, that neutral is all the knobs at 12 o'clock). Back to the old days of Leo Fender's early amps, there has always been a 'baked in' tonal profile to an amplifier (assuming that we're not talking about stand alone power amps).

Running a traditional Fender amp (or any amp that bases its design on a Fender tone stack) nets you a big mid-scoop. Some amps are loved because they have a large low mid bump with the knobs at noon. These are not 'flat', nor have they ever been. Flat refers to the tone the amp is presenting...if one looks at the tonal spectrum as a graphic representation, its as close as that amp will get to a 'flat line'. In cabs, we refer to this as UNCOLORED. What goes in one side and out the other are as close to one another as possible.

Almost every player out that has 'color'. it's whether its coming from their hand placement, their strings, pickups, on-board preamp, amp-preamp, speaker cab, room placement, etc.

The idea is to find the level tonal ground that most represents 'uncolored' and then you have the freedom to get the sound YOU want with the least amount of compensation for all of these different factors.

 

[stflbn]

Saying "Set everything Flat and go from there" is a quick an easy place for people to start... or that's the intention when people say it. Only problem is when the people you're talking to do not know to either set their EQ at no boost or cut, or their Active basses in the center detents.

Can't recall the number of times I've talked with people about their rigs who are having throughs only to find out they have every knob on the bass maxed, or at minimum, and likewise on the amp, and wondering why it doesn't sound like they think it should.

:: shakes head ::


.

 

[will33]

Your 5-5-5 line looks a lot like swr voicing, they just use - / 0 / + knobs instead of 1-10 knobs for adjusting but you're still starting from something similair to that. I always found myself putting in a healthy 250 boost and making small tweaks from there.

 

[teleharmonium]

Can't recall the number of times I've talked with people about their rigs who are having throughs only to find out they have every knob on the bass maxed, or at minimum, and likewise on the amp, and wondering why it doesn't sound like they think it should.

:: shakes head ::.

Or when you give them a CD to check out a mix of something and they say it sounds boomy and harsh, and you look at their stereo and both the bass and treble controls are all the way up.

 

[shtik]

Flat just means that the EQ section is not changing the overall tone. When the knobs on a typical EQ set to 0 or middle, it means that what you hear is the tone of all the components (bass, amp, cab) without you changing it. As if there was no EQ option available.

an EQ is just a tool given to the user i.e. bass player to change the overall frequency balance and tone if he wants.

As all of you stated before, in the real world, acustically and sonic-wise.. There is no flat.

 

[BurningSkies]

Flat just means that the EQ section is not changing the overall tone. When the knobs on a typical EQ set to 0 or middle, it means that what you hear is the tone of all the components (bass, amp, cab) without you changing it. As if there was no EQ option available.

an EQ is just a tool given to the user i.e. bass player to change the overall frequency balance and tone if he wants.

As all of you stated before, in the real world, acustically and sonic-wise.. There is no flat.

You're assuming that 'middle' on most amps means there's no EQ happening...and I really can't name any production amps where this is the case.

 

[J.Nuno]

Way too much thought getting in the way of getting stuff done, if you ask me. Plug in, set all knobs at noon, cut and boost as you see fit from there, play bass, get chicks, go home.

Chicks? With bass? ah! Not even the one I got cares for my bass or my skills...

But anyway, I wanted to know "what" it was not just how to do it, so I appreciate all the thought you guys are throwing in!

I still don't see consensus, but I'm definitely learning new things!

 

[Muttleybass]

Not in my world. It means set to the settings that come closest to making a flat frequency response line. Check with your recording engineer friends on what they really mean...

I doubt the OP has a frequency analyzer. I'm pretty sure he meant to ask "what's it mean when someone tells me to set my EQ flat". I seriously doubt he meant "what's a flat frequency response".

Way too much thought getting in the way of getting stuff done, if you ask me. Plug in, set all knobs at noon, cut and boost as you see fit from there, play bass, get chicks, go home.

Thank yew, we have a winner!