G&L Club Part 7

[winston]

Anyone know what bass/guitar strings Leo Fender used when designing G&Ls back in the day?

Also not directly on topic, but same question for the periods Leo was still at Fender and Music Man?

Thanks!

 

[TomB]

Anyone know what bass/guitar strings Leo Fender used when designing G&Ls back in the day?

Also not directly on topic, but same question for the periods Leo was still at Fender and Music Man?

Thanks!

I only know that when I purchased my September 1980 L-1000 it was wearing round wound strings, likely nickel. I've no idea who made them.

 

[TDR1138]

I don't think they ever resolved the root cause of the dual action truss welds breaking. In my mind, any instrument from when they implememted it in 2013 through the end is susceptible. Then there is the 2006 thing where they introduced a new non compression truss design that was bad on rollout. They were changing a lot of little things in the 2000s.

For these reasons, I only browse 80s or 90s instruments as they seem the least likely to have issues.

I recall reading a post by the guy that ran their custom shop at the end (forget his name) where he said that it was related to the channel for the truss rod being routed improperly. I recall that he said they'd fixed it in 2023, but I don't recall specifically when.

I do think the rods are a poor design and poor quality to begin with, but installing them in a poorly cut channel probably just accelerated their failure.

 

[Ricky Rioli]

I recall that he said they'd fixed it in 2023, but I don't recall specifically when

He said 2024:

A lot of people know that our basses had a big issue with snapping truss rods. Very few people actually understand why it happened. A ton of people guess incorrectly (including the McLarens) that the rod itself was the problem. This was not the case.

So you want to buy an instrument in the era before I fixed the program (pre-March/April 2024) and you want to know what to look for, Besides the obvious of the adjustment nut just already being broken.

It's immediately obvious if you have a bad one. You have a neck with way too much relief, so the action is a mile high, and as you try to tighten the rod it does nothing to straighten the neck until you inevitably max it out and it snaps the adjustment nut off the threads. The rod turns and turns, then eventually you over torque the threaded rod the nut is welded to and it snaps off with a loud pop.

Basses have a lot more tension than guitars. That coupled with the longer overall neck length makes these very obvious to anyone that knows how to check neck relief.

The issue ultimately came down to an error in the CNC programming for the depth of the truss rod channel, on the bass program specifically. (Guitars and Fallout Basses were not affected by this error.)
Someone made it too deep, which allowed the rod to pull in on itself. Truss rods work because they are firmly anchored between the fingerboard and neck shaft with as little wiggle room as possible. Ours had upwards of .020-.050" of room, depending on a few variables. The woodshop manager prepped all the neck blanks by putting them through a thickness sander from the 70's. It was desperately in need of maintenance, so it didn't give consistent thickness results. The guy would check one of them and see it was close to spec (.800") and then send them all through. The problem was, the machine would give you variance of +/- .020" on a good day.

So out of a batch of 10-15 necks, the blank thickness could be off by as much as .020" too thick. Add that to the depth being wrong, and you get a wild swing in depth from neck to neck. Some were only off by about .020", which is close enough to get by when you factor in glue squeezing into the channel to fill the gap. It's still not great, but it can work a little bit. When you add in the other discrepancy it becomes untenable.

Our CNC worked by basing "zero" off the flat surface of the fixture the blank was mounted to, so it went to the same exact depth every time assuming we've properly thicknessed the blank to spec. We could have zero'd the piece every time, but that would grind production to a halt. It's a tedious process to do that on our older HAAS machines.

The workaround was to have the machine "fly cut" the entire surface of the blank to .800" based off the fixture during the truss rod program, so we knew it was perfect. It stopped the issue completely after that.

I ultimately got tired of seeing them returned or seeing them pop in final assembly, and I said "shag it" and ripped several in half with the bandsaw. That allowed me to see the problem with the rod still in place.

I'll also reiterate, because I personally prepped every body and neck blank for Custom Shop builds during my time there, and ran the CNC programs for those cuts in about 90-95% of them, I was able to avoid the issue on our builds by properly spec'ing blanks using a different thickness sander in our shop, and checking every single one with calipers. We also worked in much smaller batches than standard production, so it was easier to spot discrepancies

 

[Ricky Rioli]

Just realised that if they had taken 7 months to get around to my neck replacement instead of a mere 6 months, then it would have been made after Mr Custom Shop sorted the problem.

 

[TDR1138]

He said 2024:

A lot of people know that our basses had a big issue with snapping truss rods. Very few people actually understand why it happened. A ton of people guess incorrectly (including the McLarens) that the rod itself was the problem. This was not the case.

So you want to buy an instrument in the era before I fixed the program (pre-March/April 2024) and you want to know what to look for, Besides the obvious of the adjustment nut just already being broken.

It's immediately obvious if you have a bad one. You have a neck with way too much relief, so the action is a mile high, and as you try to tighten the rod it does nothing to straighten the neck until you inevitably max it out and it snaps the adjustment nut off the threads. The rod turns and turns, then eventually you over torque the threaded rod the nut is welded to and it snaps off with a loud pop.

Basses have a lot more tension than guitars. That coupled with the longer overall neck length makes these very obvious to anyone that knows how to check neck relief.

The issue ultimately came down to an error in the CNC programming for the depth of the truss rod channel, on the bass program specifically. (Guitars and Fallout Basses were not affected by this error.)
Someone made it too deep, which allowed the rod to pull in on itself. Truss rods work because they are firmly anchored between the fingerboard and neck shaft with as little wiggle room as possible. Ours had upwards of .020-.050" of room, depending on a few variables. The woodshop manager prepped all the neck blanks by putting them through a thickness sander from the 70's. It was desperately in need of maintenance, so it didn't give consistent thickness results. The guy would check one of them and see it was close to spec (.800") and then send them all through. The problem was, the machine would give you variance of +/- .020" on a good day.

So out of a batch of 10-15 necks, the blank thickness could be off by as much as .020" too thick. Add that to the depth being wrong, and you get a wild swing in depth from neck to neck. Some were only off by about .020", which is close enough to get by when you factor in glue squeezing into the channel to fill the gap. It's still not great, but it can work a little bit. When you add in the other discrepancy it becomes untenable.

Our CNC worked by basing "zero" off the flat surface of the fixture the blank was mounted to, so it went to the same exact depth every time assuming we've properly thicknessed the blank to spec. We could have zero'd the piece every time, but that would grind production to a halt. It's a tedious process to do that on our older HAAS machines.

The workaround was to have the machine "fly cut" the entire surface of the blank to .800" based off the fixture during the truss rod program, so we knew it was perfect. It stopped the issue completely after that.

I ultimately got tired of seeing them returned or seeing them pop in final assembly, and I said "shag it" and ripped several in half with the bandsaw. That allowed me to see the problem with the rod still in place.

I'll also reiterate, because I personally prepped every body and neck blank for Custom Shop builds during my time there, and ran the CNC programs for those cuts in about 90-95% of them, I was able to avoid the issue on our builds by properly spec'ing blanks using a different thickness sander in our shop, and checking every single one with calipers. We also worked in much smaller batches than standard production, so it was easier to spot discrepancies

Different than what I saw, but the most thorough explanation I've seen to date, so I'd take that as pretty definitive.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

So, theoretically, one could resolve the issue of a not-yet-snapped trussrod by removing the fingerboard, pulling the rod, filling and correctly rerouting the channel, and then putting the not-failed trussrod back in.

Yes, a lot of work, but not impossible, nor unheard of.

 

[TDR1138]

So, theoretically, one could resolve the issue of a not-yet-snapped trussrod by removing the fingerboard, pulling the rod, filling and correctly rerouting the channel, and then putting the not-failed trussrod back in.

Yes, a lot of work, but not impossible, nor unheard of.

Basically what you'd need to do if you broke the rod at this point. Might as well just wait for it to snap and then put a better rod in while you were doing the surgery.

 

[Iridescentone]

I really don't know if I even want another bass...

I call BS!

 

[Iridescentone]

I know from personal experience that they experienced truss rod issues around 2006, don't know how wide the window. I do know they fixed them at the time.

This one is either a 2004 or 2006 (can't recall). Frozen truss rod. I can never sell it. Fortunately the quartersawn #8 neck is set perfectly, and has been stable for the 11-12 years I've owned it. Still, I keep TI flats on it just for good measure.

Solid, bi-cut maple neck. I doubt I could find anyone to replace the rod if the neck ever goes outta wack. The old addage "any guitar can be fixed if you throw enough money at it".....not so sure that applies to this one.

Regardless, I just love this bass and I don't mind showing it off!

 

[metron]

He said 2024:

A lot of people know that our basses had a big issue with snapping truss rods. Very few people actually understand why it happened. A ton of people guess incorrectly (including the McLarens) that the rod itself was the problem. This was not the case.

So you want to buy an instrument in the era before I fixed the program (pre-March/April 2024) and you want to know what to look for, Besides the obvious of the adjustment nut just already being broken.

It's immediately obvious if you have a bad one. You have a neck with way too much relief, so the action is a mile high, and as you try to tighten the rod it does nothing to straighten the neck until you inevitably max it out and it snaps the adjustment nut off the threads. The rod turns and turns, then eventually you over torque the threaded rod the nut is welded to and it snaps off with a loud pop.

Basses have a lot more tension than guitars. That coupled with the longer overall neck length makes these very obvious to anyone that knows how to check neck relief.

The issue ultimately came down to an error in the CNC programming for the depth of the truss rod channel, on the bass program specifically. (Guitars and Fallout Basses were not affected by this error.)
Someone made it too deep, which allowed the rod to pull in on itself. Truss rods work because they are firmly anchored between the fingerboard and neck shaft with as little wiggle room as possible. Ours had upwards of .020-.050" of room, depending on a few variables. The woodshop manager prepped all the neck blanks by putting them through a thickness sander from the 70's. It was desperately in need of maintenance, so it didn't give consistent thickness results. The guy would check one of them and see it was close to spec (.800") and then send them all through. The problem was, the machine would give you variance of +/- .020" on a good day.

So out of a batch of 10-15 necks, the blank thickness could be off by as much as .020" too thick. Add that to the depth being wrong, and you get a wild swing in depth from neck to neck. Some were only off by about .020", which is close enough to get by when you factor in glue squeezing into the channel to fill the gap. It's still not great, but it can work a little bit. When you add in the other discrepancy it becomes untenable.

Our CNC worked by basing "zero" off the flat surface of the fixture the blank was mounted to, so it went to the same exact depth every time assuming we've properly thicknessed the blank to spec. We could have zero'd the piece every time, but that would grind production to a halt. It's a tedious process to do that on our older HAAS machines.

The workaround was to have the machine "fly cut" the entire surface of the blank to .800" based off the fixture during the truss rod program, so we knew it was perfect. It stopped the issue completely after that.

I ultimately got tired of seeing them returned or seeing them pop in final assembly, and I said "shag it" and ripped several in half with the bandsaw. That allowed me to see the problem with the rod still in place.

I'll also reiterate, because I personally prepped every body and neck blank for Custom Shop builds during my time there, and ran the CNC programs for those cuts in about 90-95% of them, I was able to avoid the issue on our builds by properly spec'ing blanks using a different thickness sander in our shop, and checking every single one with calipers. We also worked in much smaller batches than standard production, so it was easier to spot discrepancies

Thanks for sharing. If they had done that analysis 10 years prior, they might still be around.

 

[Ricky Rioli]

Thanks for sharing. If they had done that analysis 10 years prior, they might still be around.

He only joined in 2023

 

[metron]

He only joined in 2023

Sure, by they I meant G&L. Seriously how many necks do you replace before someone says there might be something wrong here. In my business, do an RCA when the issue first pops up. So you can fix it. They did this for years! Reminds me of this is fine dog.

 

[winston]

Sure, by they I meant G&L. Seriously how many necks do you replace before someone says there might be something wrong here. In my business, do an RCA when the issue first pops up. So you can fix it. They did this for years! Reminds me of this is fine dog.

Yeah, I worked in food manufacturing/R&D for years...
If you don't prioritize fixing known errors, you not only risk losing customers but hurting/killing people, pissing off investors, and getting in deep trouble with regulators.

 

[Ricky Rioli]

In 2022, I also bought online a used LB-100, a Fullerton Deluxe, I think. I can't remember the year, but it was pretty recent. Could it have been Old School Tobacco Burst? And very light for a bass that wasn't Empress.

It had that "sky high action" James Gay mentions in that post. In 2022 had read enough to know this could be a G&L Special, so I immediately sent it back to the retailer.

So my hit rate was 1 truly excellent neck, and 3 lemons. Having read this post from James Gay, that failure rate doesn't seem especially unfortunate.

 

[Ricky Rioli]

To change the subject — I've had the pickup reversed in my LB-100 for almost six months, and I think I'm about to give up on the MFD pickup. It was a struggle to find the right strings and right EQ etc. I'm now getting one excellent sound .... only.

Since this is my main bass, that's too restrictive. I'm aware of the maxim, tone is in the fingers, and my fingers are the variable that I can't change.

I love the balance between the A and D strings the reversing gives, but the side effect is that the thick MFD tone sounds boxed-in. I'm going to keep using the reverse routing, but will bring back to the airy alnico Fralin pickup.

Previously when I've seen a MFD split reversed, it's been on an SB-2 so there's the bridge pickup to be added to the sound. Right now, a little bit of that bridge pickup feels exactly what me and my midsy fingers are in need of.

 

[woodyng2]

You're right…I do want one.
I just don't know if I can justify buying another. And I'm even more risk aversive these days……

 

[dave64o]

This one is either a 2004 or 2006 (can't recall). Frozen truss rod. I can never sell it. Fortunately the quartersawn #8 neck is set perfectly, and has been stable for the 11-12 years I've owned it. Still, I keep TI flats on it just for good measure.

Solid, bi-cut maple neck. I doubt I could find anyone to replace the rod if the neck ever goes outta wack. The old addage "any guitar can be fixed if you throw enough money at it".....not so sure that applies to this one.

Regardless, I just love this bass and I don't mind showing it off!

View attachment 7528520

View attachment 7528521

View attachment 7528522

Oooooooo, that's pretty!

 

[jglunt]

To change the subject — I've had the pickup reversed in my LB-100 for almost six months, and I think I'm about to give up on the MFD pickup. It was a struggle to find the right strings and right EQ etc. I'm now getting one excellent sound .... only.

Since this is my main bass, that's too restrictive. I'm aware of the maxim, tone is in the fingers, and my fingers are the variable that I can't change.

I love the balance between the A and D strings the reversing gives, but the side effect is that the thick MFD tone sounds boxed-in. I'm going to keep using the reverse routing, but will bring back to the airy alnico Fralin pickup.

Previously when I've seen a MFD split reversed, it's been on an SB-2 so there's the bridge pickup to be added to the sound. Right now, a little bit of that bridge pickup feels exactly what me and my midsy fingers are in need of.

I personally find that same issue even with a standard P-bass configuration. I get one tone out of it, and frankly, I'm not that fond of that one tone. That's just me. A number of years ago, I bought a Tribute LB-100, and the tone was uber-boring. I dropped an inexpensive Seymour Duncan STC-2C-BO 2-band concentric preamp into it, and it was a big help. Later, as an experiment, I pulled the MFD split coil out of my SB-2 and put it in there -- I wanted to see if the MFD would overdrive that preamp. It did not overdrive it, and it sounded so good and increased the versatility of that instrument so much that it's still in there years later. Having both treble and bass controls with both cut and boost changes the game for a P-bass. Something offered for your consideration.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

You're right…I do want one.
I just don't know if I can justify buying another. And I'm even more risk aversive these days……

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