Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 discussion thread

[suraci]

Someone help me here.
There are two contradicting ideas

1. Loads of headroom

2. back in the days of tubes we used to feel too much power for a softer jazz volume was a bad thing.

Anyone smart enough to explain this?

 

[suraci]

One never knows what gig will come up next. Also some report different voicing on the 6.0 versus the 9.0. Not sure about class D amps, but I know that with other amps I've owned they sound different depending on how hard you're pushing them. Tube amps often sound great when you're thrashing them. Solid state, not so much...

I am disappointed with my newly acquired svt cl ( still wondering if something could b wrong w it )
I was sure it was better than the Mark bass stuff and the shuttle 6- but I am seriously thinking about Genz or I don't know what.

In keeping w your words 'tubes sound better thrashed-- ss does NOT '

That explains both of my conflicting concepts that I have struggled with
1. not too powerful a head for the spl needed.
2. Loads of headroom


My personal experience says that every time you change something, you change the resulting sound. So I am hesitant to bypass the shuttle 6, for the Max6.
So though the Shuttle 6 was not like the shining qualities of an svt, at those lower volumes, the Genz 6 was very superior. I was hoping Max6 would increase my chances of adding a little more of tube character to the relatively "cold" shuttle 6 ( relative to tube amps in general ) .

My mind is "blown" by this experience- I played with the settings pretty frantically, and once you are in that mode, something instinctual tells you.. give it up.

The combo of big bottom ported cabinet, AND tubes, was too much at those soft levels= mud. But GB6 was clear in the low end... much much clearer.

 

[Jarrett]

I do not remember my settings when playing my 9.0 with my 2x10 but I'm pretty sure I did not dime it. I know for sure I can not dime the 9.0 with my 4 ohm 4x10 Golight. I thought I was going to blow the 4x10 first time I turned it up good. Made an awful smacking sound.

Hmm, I haven't run into a awful smacking sound so far. The speakers are moving a bit, but not jumping out of their chassis or anything. I'm kicking around another Golight cab now. I don't think I want to do a 4 ohm 4x10. I was kicking around another 8 ohm 2x10.

Yes.. you can run it without a speaker load...

Cool, thanks. I called Genz Benz and verified this is correct with them as well.

 

[svtb15]

An SVT has a certain sound overall.. All tubes in pre and power sections. iron transformers etc...
Will the shuttle sound just like an SVT, absolutely not.

The MAX6 is a warm sounding amp and it does allow you to drive the tube front end more which will give some compression or if you wind it up you can get distortion too. The Shuttle 6 does not overdrive as easy since it does not have the High gain button on the preamp..I know that some people only think of an SVT as a grindy tube sound.. but tube amps can be very clean too.
I think that you would have to play with it to see if it s what you like...

 

[nostatic]

Someone help me here.
There are two contradicting ideas

1. Loads of headroom

2. back in the days of tubes we used to feel too much power for a softer jazz volume was a bad thing.

Anyone smart enough to explain this?

Tubes are non-linear. imho they have a sweet spot in which they operate, and that is generally when they are driven rather hard. As you drive the tube it will compress, then overdrive, and usually with even numbered harmonics ("good sound"). As you drive a solid state circuit, it won't compress, will overdrive but often with odd numbered harmonics ("bad sound").

While this isn't a rigorous explanation, it is what I've read and has played out in 35+ years of playing amplified music. When you load this in along with other good points in the thread about bass needing to move low frequencies (needing a lot of power) vs guitars up in the higher registers (needing less power as our ears better hear them), you start to get big differences in the needs of guitar and bass.

In my experience if you have a hi wattage tube amp, it won't sound great at low volumes. It often will sound good as you push it, and you can drive the pre and power section often with quite pleasing grind. The same usually cannot be said about a SS amp, hence the desire for "headroom" so you aren't getting anywhere near clipping.

 

[suraci]

So my little dilemma makes sense to you!

I can't see how I can keep this great head at my soft church gig.
I don't think I can find a sweet spot that will also give me clear enough low end
The Shuttle 6 did, BUT it isn't an svt

Oh well the search continues
Thanks

 

[agedhorse]

Tubes are non-linear. imho they have a sweet spot in which they operate, and that is generally when they are driven rather hard. As you drive the tube it will compress, then overdrive, and usually with even numbered harmonics ("good sound"). As you drive a solid state circuit, it won't compress, will overdrive but often with odd numbered harmonics ("bad sound").

This is a pretty simplistic explaination that misses one of the real (and most important) points about the differences between tube amps and solid state amps.

Both tubes and solid state (transistors) are linear devices. Both amplifiy based on an operating load line transfer curve or function. In fact these load lines are quite similar.

One of the primary differences between the perceived differences is that most tube amps use fairly low negative feedback while most solid state amps use high negative feedback. With low negative feedback, the anomolies on the load lines (mostly at the extremes) are not masked or corrected for, whereas for high feedback amps the correction is quite good. The chief disadvantage of this for guitar and bass amplification is that when you do run out of headroom and clip the amp, the feedback correction signal is suddenly removed and the signal immediately reverts to it's open loop behavour, which is the uncorrected transfer curve.

So, if you were to reduce the negative feedback on a solid state amp, it will behave more tubelike and if you increased the feedback on a tube amp (stability is the limiting factor here) it will behave more solid state like. This is the basis behind some tube emulation schemes... the gradual reduction of negative feedback as the amp gets close to clipping, or an overall reduction of negative feedback.

There's a lot more going on inside an amp than meets the eye. Unfortunately, the marketing guys along with urban legend carry on the myths that it's all in the tubes. In fact, tubes play a part in the OVERALL DESIGN because of their limitations which dictated common design topologies.

 

[Mastermold]

So, if you were to reduce the negative feedback on a solid state amp, it will behave more tubelike and if you increased the feedback on a tube amp (stability is the limiting factor here) it will behave more solid state like. This is the basis behind some tube emulation schemes... the gradual reduction of negative feedback as the amp gets close to clipping, or an overall reduction of negative feedback.

Is this some of what's going on with the GB micro heads? I assumed the tube preamp was more the cause for the warmth in the tone, but as you said, sounds like a lot more than that is going on.

 

[Eublet]

I am disappointed with my newly acquired svt cl ( still wondering if something could b wrong w it )
I was sure it was better than the Mark bass stuff and the shuttle 6- but I am seriously thinking about Genz or I don't know what.

In keeping w your words 'tubes sound better thrashed-- ss does NOT '

That explains both of my conflicting concepts that I have struggled with
1. not too powerful a head for the spl needed.
2. Loads of headroom


My personal experience says that every time you change something, you change the resulting sound. So I am hesitant to bypass the shuttle 6, for the Max6.
So though the Shuttle 6 was not like the shining qualities of an svt, at those lower volumes, the Genz 6 was very superior. I was hoping Max6 would increase my chances of adding a little more of tube character to the relatively "cold" shuttle 6 ( relative to tube amps in general ) .

My mind is "blown" by this experience- I played with the settings pretty frantically, and once you are in that mode, something instinctual tells you.. give it up.

The combo of big bottom ported cabinet, AND tubes, was too much at those soft levels= mud. But GB6 was clear in the low end... much much clearer.

Are you wanting an overdriven sound, or a lot of harmonic content, fuzz, etc?

Generally speaking, at lower volumes, you can emulate the feel and warmth of an all tube head just by rolling back a passive tone control a bit and using a good optical compressor, such as a Demeter Compulator. This won't give you any of the harmonic content from a saturated all-tube head, but it does give a good bit of the give and bloom. Combine that with a pedal (such as the Sansamp VT) to introduce some modeling, and that's probably as good as you're going to get to that sound in a quiet package.

Of course, there are plenty of heads out that that try to emulate an all-tube head regardless of volume level, but it's subjective to the listener as to how pleasing that is.

 

[jokerjkny]

If you want to check out that combo, I have both the 9.0 and
the Berg AE210, as well as a few other boxes. That combo is
most certainly not "hi fi" sounding. Very punchy and warm.

while for my tastes i've gone back to heavier iron in the amps and ceramics in my cabs, i gotta admit, the shuttle amps and the bergantino ae series cabs do sound pretty dam good together.

there was some sweet synergy w/ a shutttle 6.0 & ae410 i tried a little while back.

 

[nostatic]

This is a pretty simplistic explaination that misses one of the real (and most important) points about the differences between tube amps and solid state amps.

Both tubes and solid state (transistors) are linear devices. Both amplifiy based on an operating load line transfer curve or function. In fact these load lines are quite similar.

One of the primary differences between the perceived differences is that most tube amps use fairly low negative feedback while most solid state amps use high negative feedback. With low negative feedback, the anomolies on the load lines (mostly at the extremes) are not masked or corrected for, whereas for high feedback amps the correction is quite good. The chief disadvantage of this for guitar and bass amplification is that when you do run out of headroom and clip the amp, the feedback correction signal is suddenly removed and the signal immediately reverts to it's open loop behavour, which is the uncorrected transfer curve.

So, if you were to reduce the negative feedback on a solid state amp, it will behave more tubelike and if you increased the feedback on a tube amp (stability is the limiting factor here) it will behave more solid state like. This is the basis behind some tube emulation schemes... the gradual reduction of negative feedback as the amp gets close to clipping, or an overall reduction of negative feedback.

There's a lot more going on inside an amp than meets the eye. Unfortunately, the marketing guys along with urban legend carry on the myths that it's all in the tubes. In fact, tubes play a part in the OVERALL DESIGN because of their limitations which dictated common design topologies.

I agree that it was s simplistic explanation (though I claimed it wasn't rigorous ). Always glad to have an engineer to explain the details but as a player in the end it has to be judged by my hands and my ears. And while you can mathematically design a SS circuit to "emulate" a tube circuit, it just isn't the same in my experience. That isn't to say that either one is better than the other - there are great tube amps and lousy tube amps, and the same with SS. I just know that for instance on guitar I have *never* played a SS amp that has the "bounce" of a good tube amp. Similarly, I've never heard a ProTools or other digital recording setup have the same sound as analog tape. I've gotten close with digital trickery, but analog and digital are just fundamentally different animals. And in the end humans are analog beings (at least so far) so at some point the digital has to transform to analog.

For bass though it is a different game wrt amps as the needs and goals are different. I can gig all night long with a good 15W tube amp. On bass I'd like some tube warmth but I want a bunch of headroom as I need to move air and have articulate notes rather than compressed ones.

My bigger question is around ideal power rating/handling. Seems that some would argue that you don't want to overpower a cabinet, so a 6.0 would be a better match for an 8ohm cab with 400W power handling. I'm usually been of the mind that for bass I want more clean power on tap so that I don't get near the extremes of power output of the amp.

 

[agedhorse]

Is this some of what's going on with the GB micro heads? I assumed the tube preamp was more the cause for the warmth in the tone, but as you said, sounds like a lot more than that is going on.

This was specifically with regard to linear amps like class AB/G/H. It applies to amps like the NeoPak, and the GBE 600/750/1200, but not to the Shuttles which are cleas D.

BUT, there are quite a few other tricks that are also used, and in combination they help to provide both the sound AND the feel of a tube output stage. Since there are many kinds of tube amps, it's not goingto be identical but will be in a similar family. Sorry I can't go into more detail as there's pending patent stuff involved.

 

[agedhorse]

Always glad to have an engineer to explain the details but as a player in the end it has to be judged by my hands and my ears. And while you can mathematically design a SS circuit to "emulate" a tube circuit, it just isn't the same in my experience. That isn't to say that either one is better than the other - there are great tube amps and lousy tube amps, and the same with SS. I just know that for instance on guitar I have *never* played a SS amp that has the "bounce" of a good tube amp.
For bass though it is a different game wrt amps as the needs and goals are different. I can gig all night long with a good 15W tube amp. On bass I'd like some tube warmth but I want a bunch of headroom as I need to move air and have articulate notes rather than compressed ones.

My bigger question is around ideal power rating/handling. Seems that some would argue that you don't want to overpower a cabinet, so a 6.0 would be a better match for an 8ohm cab with 400W power handling. I'm usually been of the mind that for bass I want more clean power on tap so that I don't get near the extremes of power output of the amp.

Understanding how and why tube amps sound like they do is a big step towards designing solid state amps with similar characteristics. Math modeling is not necessary if you understand the concepts and fundamentals of the basic design approaches and strategy. We may not get exactly the same response but we can certainly get into the same family IF that's what you are going for. We are not trying to be identical to anything, we are trying to provide a solution that works well for a variety of tastes and playing styles. That is what drives the voicing and topology of our amps as well as the resultant feel as they are driven hard.

Regarding power levels, IF you have good self control and judgemenmt, playing an amp with more power is just fine. The problem is that many folks keep inching the volume up and pretty soon the headroom is no longer headroom as the amp gets driven harder and harder. That's why we have the output tube emulation limiter designed into all our amps. When matched to the "RMS" rated speaker cabinet, you are relatively safe driving the amp pretty hard into the limiter which prevents mechanical damage to the speaker while increasing the average power and a more tube like feel. There's a lot going on with the signal as it enters the limiting phase.

 

[nostatic]

I'd like to think I have good self control and judgement but my ex-wives might disagree...

Actually right now I'm using an Ashdown ABM-500 Evo2 that I like quite a bit. Tube and SS pre, SS mains. I just want a bit of the tube "vibe" which is what it sounds like you guys are going for. The goal is a swiss army amp that I can stuff in a bag and go. Seems like you guys hit that mark quite well. Look forward to picking one up. I'll have to think again about 6.0 vs. 9.0 though given your comments about how your amps drive near the limit. I appreciate the comments.

 

[Red Planet]

So my little dilemma makes sense to you!

I can't see how I can keep this great head at my soft church gig.
I don't think I can find a sweet spot that will also give me clear enough low end
The Shuttle 6 did, BUT it isn't an svt

Oh well the search continues
Thanks

You need to listen to the Shuttle 9.0. Complete tonal oposite IMHO. Much more brown sounding. I played my 9.0 the other day with a Fultone OCD V3 in front of it with the gain about half and the drive on about 1/4 and the tone control way down at about 8:00. My God it was glorious. Sounded like a cranked SVT but at a much more reasonable volume.

 

[agedhorse]

I'd like to think I have good self control and judgement but my ex-wives might disagree...

Plural?

 

[3wavylines]

That's why we have the output tube emulation limiter designed into all our amps. When matched to the "RMS" rated speaker cabinet, you are relatively safe driving the amp pretty hard into the limiter which prevents mechanical damage to the speaker while increasing the average power and a more tube like feel. There's a lot going on with the signal as it enters the limiting phase.

What about a switch or a knob that causes the limiter and the "special sauce" to engage at lower watts/volume? I like the idea of a "tube like feel", but wouldn't want to have to get close to putting out 500/900 W to start to hear or feel it.

 

[Red Planet]

IME its there all the time.

 

[Dr Funk]

IME its there all the time.

I have to concur completely.

 

[3wavylines]

IME its there all the time.

I have to concur completely.

Thanks. I'll have to give it a try.