Has Gretsch been lying to us for over a decade?

[Johnny Alien]

Yes they should respond to questions at some point but who knows. I assume it will be corrected quietly on the website. None of that equates to the accusation of fraud and deception that is being shown in the comments here and in the video. Keep in mind that we have no idea when this started, how many basses are effected etc. But the video shows FRAUD large in the screenshot. It says "Fender caught lying to you" in the title which also suggests that FMIC deliberately made the change and didn't tell people. Its also heavily implied that the pickups were probably never humbuckers which we know now isn't true. Report the facts is all I am saying. Suggesting that this was knowing deception over and over is not doing the public persona any favors. I appreciate the reporting on this and I doubt we will ever know the whole story but I just don't see this as a conscious move on FMIC's part. That doesn't pass the logical sniff test for me.

 

[frankie5string]

I agree that it doesn't warrant a reply if we're going by a playbook from 2005.

It would amuse me, though, that a company would intentionally ride it out while they (hopefully) investigate in today's age. "We're not trying to lie to anyone and we're looking into it" is all it would take. This topic would be mostly buttoned up.

Dismissing the hardcore nerds on the internet is an old fashioned mindset - but hey, this is Fender we're talking about!

Lawyers don't deal with "hardcore nerds." The boilerplate still states specifications can change at any time without notice.

 

[SleepyShark]

Yes they should respond to questions at some point but who knows. I assume it will be corrected quietly on the website. None of that equates to the accusation of fraud and deception that is being shown in the comments here and in the video. Keep in mind that we have no idea when this started, how many basses are effected etc. But the video shows FRAUD large in the screenshot. It says "Fender caught lying to you" in the title which also suggests that FMIC deliberately made the change and didn't tell people. Its also heavily implied that the pickups were probably never humbuckers which we know now isn't true. Report the facts is all I am saying. Suggesting that this was knowing deception over and over is not doing the public persona any favors. I appreciate the reporting on this and I doubt we will ever know the whole story but I just don't see this as a conscious move on FMIC's part. That doesn't pass the logical sniff test for me.

Lawyers don't deal with "hardcore nerds." The boilerplate still states specifications can change at any time without notice.

Fair enough on both counts.

We can hopefully all agree that more information being out there is never a bad thing.

 

[Johnny Alien]

Regarding 2), Humbuckers, whether cheap or expensive, have two coils and two magnets; still only one casing, so not necessarily double the cost of a single coil, but definitely closer to it.

I don't think FMIC did this intentionally, but it's hard to imagine that no one in the company ever noticed a problem. I mean, the first time you pull a neck pickup out of a bass and it says "BRIDGE" on the underside, ya gotta know there's a problem. Could be that they looked at the cost to correct it and decided they'd wait and see how big of a problem it was from a customer satisfaction standpoint, i.e. "eh, let's wait and see if anyone complains about it".

It really depends on how the pickups are made. At most you are looking at an extra bobbin which would likely be a couple of cents in a cheap pickup. And there might be ways to cover that extra couple of cents somewhere else.

Loads of guitars and basses use the same output pickups in both the bridge and neck so having them be the same isn't really all that shocking to me. I think the factory is using what is easily and readily available for them which is probably what got us to this place to begin with.

 

[BruceWane]

Yes they should respond to questions at some point but who knows. I assume it will be corrected quietly on the website. None of that equates to the accusation of fraud and deception that is being shown in the comments here and in the video. Keep in mind that we have no idea when this started, how many basses are effected etc. But the video shows FRAUD large in the screenshot. It says "Fender caught lying to you" in the title which also suggests that FMIC deliberately made the change and didn't tell people. Its also heavily implied that the pickups were probably never humbuckers which we know now isn't true. Report the facts is all I am saying. Suggesting that this was knowing deception over and over is not doing the public persona any favors. I appreciate the reporting on this and I doubt we will ever know the whole story but I just don't see this as a conscious move on FMIC's part. That doesn't pass the logical sniff test for me.

You must be new to this thing called "the internet"

The internet, at this point, could aptly be renamed "digitized hyperbole". Everything is a catchy headline. Clickbait. It is kinda sad to me, having been in IT way back when the internet was this new emerging thing that lots of wide-eyed people thought would be this wonderful benevolent resource, bringing knowledge and progress throughout the world. These days it looks like it'll likely hasten the demise of the human species.

Although actually, this particular approach predates YouTube by, oh, nearly the entire history of humanity. It's called "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". You often don't get what you want by being quietly polite about it. In this case, making the "squeak" louder to the party that should pay attention to it means making that view count sufficiently high.

 

[Johnny Alien]

You must be new to this thing called "the internet"

My computer science degree and 20 years in the programming field disagrees with this statement. Not to mention that I am old and have been on Talkbass since 2003. Yikes!

The internet, at this point, could aptly be renamed "digitized hyperbole". Everything is a catchy headline. Clickbait. It is kinda sad to me, having been in IT way back when the internet was this new emerging thing that lots of wide-eyed people thought would be this wonderful benevolent resource, bringing knowledge and progress throughout the world. These days it looks like it'll likely hasten the demise of the human species.

Although actually, this particular approach predates YouTube by, oh, nearly the entire history of humanity. It's called "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". You often don't get what you want by being quietly polite about it. In this case, making the "squeak" louder to the party that should pay attention to it means making that view count sufficiently high.

This isn't hyperbole or being a squeaky wheel. Fraud is intentional deception. That is something that not only does no one in this thread actually know but is probably unlikely. But fraud is the word that is being leveraged in very large letters. I am saying we should keep this in perspective and talk about the things we actually do know vs making outrageous claims. Also again...this is a $300 bass that everyone loved last week.

 

[JC BASS 91]

Also again...this is a $300 bass that everyone loved last week.

I still love it!

 

[LBS-bass]

just a bit dumbfounded by the amount of apologists.

I really don't see any apologists. I see people trying to make sense out of what might have happened, and I see some other people jumping to the conclusion that anyone who doesn't have a sufficiently high level of outrage for their taste is on the evil train.

This is not how reasonable people discuss things. Maybe it is in the age of social media, but it's not how I was taught conversations are conducted. In my old-fashioned world, people toss out thoughts and ideas with respectfulness, and counter-arguments are considered on their merits, then discussion continues. My world might be disappearing but I feel like there's way too much defensiveness here for any actual information processing to be taking place.

 

[BruceWane]

It really depends on how the pickups are made. At most you are looking at an extra bobbin which would likely be a couple of cents in a cheap pickup. And there might be ways to cover that extra couple of cents somewhere else.

Bobbins are not coils. A bobbin is the fixture on to which a wire is wound, forming a coil. To build a humbucker you are looking at minimum an extra coil, not at most. Most humbuckers also have an extra magnet.

Loads of guitars and basses use the same output pickups in both the bridge and neck so having them be the same isn't really all that shocking to me. I think the factory is using what is easily and readily available for them which is probably what got us to this place to begin with.

Guitars and basses that use identical pickups in neck and bridge positions use humbuckers, not single coils. Well, except for very poorly made instruments.

Why would they label the pickups as "BRIDGE" if they didn't intend to also have a "NECK" pickup? As I've already pointed out, there is -zero- cost difference between the two.

Also, the factory has stated, per their own provided specifications, that this bass has "humbuckers". In no way, shape, or form can these pickups be considered to be humbuckers. None. Zero. Zilch. If they're "using what is easily and readily available for them" that's all fine and good, that's their prerogative. But they need to at least correct their specifications.

What would you say if they marketed this as a 30" scale, but they were shipping 34" scale basses? Would you say "that's OK, they're just using necks that are easily and readily available for them"?

 

[SleepyShark]

I really don't see any apologists. I see people trying to make sense out of what might have happened, and I see some other people jumping to the conclusion that anyone who doesn't have a sufficiently high level of outrage for their taste is on the evil train.

This is not how reasonable people discuss things. Maybe it is in the age of social media, but it's not how I was taught conversations are conducted. In my old-fashioned world, people toss out thoughts and ideas with respectfulness, and counter-arguments are considered on their merits, then discussion continues. My world might be disappearing but I feel like there's way too much defensiveness here for any actual information processing to be taking place.

You know, it's safe to say that we should all err on the side of caution when interpreting someone's tone online, myself included.

I probably project a negative tone on someone's else post more often than I should. Could be conditioning from modern media, an area where I could grow personally, something else, or a mixture of it all.

Truly, I appreciate everyone here even if I don't personally connect with what they're saying or even heavily disagree, even if it might come across that I don't sometimes. Carry on.

 

[Johnny Alien]

Bobbins are not coils. A bobbin is the fixture on to which a wire is wound, forming a coil. To build a humbucker you are looking at minimum an extra coil, not at most. Most humbuckers also have an extra magnet.



Guitars and basses that use identical pickups in neck and bridge positions use humbuckers, not single coils. Well, except for very poorly made instruments.

Why would they label the pickups as "BRIDGE" if they didn't intend to also have a "NECK" pickup? As I've already pointed out, there is -zero- cost difference between the two.

Also, the factory has stated, per their own provided specifications, that this bass has "humbuckers". In no way, shape, or form can these pickups be considered to be humbuckers. None. Zero. Zilch. If they're "using what is easily and readily available for them" that's all fine and good, that's their prerogative. But they need to at least correct their specifications.

What would you say if they marketed this as a 30" scale, but they were shipping 34" scale basses? Would you say "that's OK, they're just using necks that are easily and readily available for them"?

I am not sure what you are arguing at this point. I never said that their description was accurate or that people shouldn't be upset that they didn't get what they thought they were getting. I was arguing that there is nothing pointing to FMIC doing this intentionally.

I get the difference between the bobbin and coil. Again..the extra material depends on the pickup build. Type of wire, how many winds, etc. The extra bobbin needs wire but if a cheaper wire is used or you use less winds per bobbin then you do with the single coil then maybe its a wash. Maybe its a couple of cents? Who knows because its a mythical pickup that doesn't exist at this point. A cheap humbucker does not automatically equate to more expensive than a cheap single coil.

My point on the bridge pickup is that these are Chinese pickup made for or at the Chinese factory. They are using what is easy and readily available. If you think that all of this was masterminded by FMIC to fraud the low end bass market then I would say thats in your lane to prove.

 

[SPlavick]

I'm tempted to buy one of these and dissect the pickups but I don't see any replacement pickup options available. Can anyone provide the dimensions of the pickup routs please?

 

[BunchyMutt]

We need to have a certain level of trust in the manufacturers we purchase instruments from, and this situation seriously erodes that trust for Gretsch/Fender.

LowEndLobster the Trustacean

 

[JC BASS 91]

I'm tempted to buy one of these and dissect the pickups but I don't see any replacement pickup options available. Can anyone provide the dimensions of the pickup routs please?

I believe people have said the TV Jones pickups will fit with some slight modification to the pickup rings?

 

[steimlem]

i think now that this information is out it can hurt their business/sales of this bass. i think a public apology or making good on their error can only benefit fender/gretsch at this point. as others have mentioned, people loved this bass yesterday. but what about new potential buyers? they will google/youtube the bass for info and find lobster's video and other threads putting them off from the purchase (rightfully so)

we all agree big companies only care about money. and for this reason i actually do think fender/gretsch will do something about this issue and not just ignore it, because it will benefit them directly. but just my speculation

 

[WG Plum]

Mine seems to be pretty quiet thus far, I'll try it with headphones later. Certainly worth the price so far. As a long time Jazz player, it certainly sounds like it has single coils in it.

 

[BruceWane]

I am not sure what you are arguing at this point. I never said that their description was accurate or that people shouldn't be upset that they didn't get what they thought they were getting. I was arguing that there is nothing pointing to FMIC doing this intentionally.

I get the difference between the bobbin and coil. Again..the extra material depends on the pickup build. Type of wire, how many winds, etc. The extra bobbin needs wire but if a cheaper wire is used or you use less winds per bobbin then you do with the single coil then maybe its a wash. Maybe its a couple of cents? Who knows because its a mythical pickup that doesn't exist at this point. A cheap humbucker does not automatically equate to more expensive than a cheap single coil.

My point on the bridge pickup is that these are Chinese pickup made for or at the Chinese factory. They are using what is easy and readily available. If you think that all of this was masterminded by FMIC to fraud the low end bass market then I would say thats in your lane to prove.

Never said this was "masterminded by FMIC to (de)fraud the low end bass market", as I said waaaay back on page six I think this is a manufacturing mistake that was not corrected. And as I also said, it's pretty obvious that this is a mistake because the pickups are labeled "BRIDGE", and making/using a complementary RWRP neck pickup would cost nothing.

Believe it or not, I do not think FMIC had a meeting during product development and said "let's make this bass more poorly than we could 'cause it will make us exactly -nothing-, not a single cent. But it will feed our evil souls to deceive our customers!"

The problem is that it's hard to imagine that no one at FMIC has ever seen the bottom side of a neck pickup in one of these basses, and/or has never so much as plugged one in and checked it for hum. It's hard to imagine that no one at FMIC has ever known about this. So it follows that it is intentionally deceptive to continue to market this bass as having humbucking pickups, even if they didn't initially intend to deceive.

So the best case scenario is that the QC process for this line of production is astonishingly bad. A major defect was never found over ten years of production. But I think the most likely scenario is FMIC became aware of this somewhere along the line, and rather than just doing the right thing, a rudimentary cost/benefit analysis was made and the final decision was to do nothing. In other words, the conclusion was "they're selling with the product and the advertising as-is, just leave it."

 

[skycruiser]

The reason I have paid any attention to this is that I have been toying with the idea of picking one of these up. I would be happy with HB pickups or dual-singles but only if they are configured to cancel noise when both are on at equal levels. I don't plan to put money into one until this issue is handled publicly by Gretsch. Either solution would work for a future purchase, but this double-bridge thing is a huge NO for me.

 

[Meenkya]

Taken from: Definition of FRAUD

fraud
noun

\ ˈfrȯd \
Definition of fraud


1a: DECEIT, TRICKERY specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right was accused of credit card fraud

b: an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : TRICK automobile insurance frauds

2a: a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : IMPOSTOR He claimed to be a licensed psychologist, but he turned out to be a fraud. also : one who defrauds : CHEAT

b: one that is not what it seems or is represented to be :The UFO picture was proved to be a fraud.

It appears there is more than one definition for "Fraud". I know for me, with Lobsters 1st video, "Fender Lying" had more impact to me than the red "FRAUD" stamp. I find 'lying' is pretty specific and 'fraud' is much less specific. I try not to get wrapped around semantics. Great job Mr. Lobster, keep up the good work.

 

[Old Blastard]

I don't know about the factory or executives or what happened to who but If they've been advertising humbuckers for 10 years but they are really single coils, something is wrong.

I mean 10 years is a lot of time to change your spec sheet, when you can do it without notice.