Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
HER NAME IS CAROL KAYE
- Thread starter galt
- Start date
I have never intended to tarnish Carol Kayes remarkable and groundbreaking career. She overcame a lot in infiltrating the good ol guuys network in the L.A. Studio scene in the competitive 60's. She hooked up with some influential people and got the opportunity to showcase her talents on some significant projects. Whether or not she was relagated to bass because she wasn't cutting it as a guitarist or not...who can say? I havve enjoyed listening to many of her terrific performances...particularly her work with Brian Wilson. I don't know if the drive to do a documentary on her career is a special passion by a few folks connected with the industry, or whether it will be a profitable venture (or not) depends on the motivations of the filmmakers. All that said...it just makes it that much more questionable as to why she would embroil herself in such a controversy, particularly in light of the overwhelmingly evidence against some of her claims in the minds of many. Once again...I hope Carol Kaye can reflect on the many great projects and barriers she DID overcome...and allow others (here or deceased) to bask in theirs.
She is a phenomenal bassist that's for sure.
She also has a huge ego to match and to me that is a major turn off.
She also has a huge ego to match and to me that is a major turn off.
Why not?
I've followed this debate for decades, and to run my flag up the pole, I'm a fan of Allan Slutsky ("Dr. Licks," the man who gave us "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" in both book and movie form, and who will go to heaven for fathering that project) - Allan and I were gigging together, regularly, when he first got the Jamerson bug (but to be clear, I was playing trombone, not bass, on those gigs!)
You can't take anything away from Carol for her role in the West Coast studio scene. She had a vibe, chops, good taste in that particular context, and could deliver the goods on a dime...and she cracked the gender divide to boot. That's a whole lot right there, certainly noteworthy/newsworthy from many perspectives.
BUT What the FUG with the "I did all of those Motown sessions" bit? Her style, technique (pick/finger) and sound don't at all match up with the Detroit stuff owned by Jamerson and Babbitt. I don't doubt that Ms. Kaye did LA Motown sessions, and I also don't doubt there is a lot of messiness about who did what during the transition period from Detroit to LA. But some of the claims associated with Ms. Kaye in connection with the Detroit stuff are just plain outlandish.
Do all of those claims originate with her? Perhaps not. Has she since repudiated any of those claims? I don't know, and if she has, then my apologies accordingly. And it's a smart move by the folks looking to make a Carol Kaye movie to sidestep that whole debate in their fundraising trailer, although if they ever get funding, I don't know how they do a 90-minute movie about her career without going there.
But what I do know is that in my eyes, the respect I would feel for someone who contributed so very much is diminished by apparent efforts to cop credit for the work of others.
In my world, that's plagiarism, copyright infringement (well, technically not for all of those musicians screwed by our American copyright "work for hire" doctrine, including Ms. Kaye, but you get my drift),or just plain F##ed up. Sorry.
And if "going there" offends you, ask yourself why this even is an issue in the first place.
Wow lots of hate towards Carol Kaye. I'd hate to think it misogyny in this day and age? I personally think that a woman achieving the status she did in the LA music scene deserves accolades not so much pettiness. It's kin to the behavior of the females on 'Housewives of (fill in the city)'. Geez I wish I could have attained just one tenth of the contribution to the music scene as she had.
A friend of mine, who is a pretty famous rock drummer, who shall remain nameless, had the good fortune of playing a gig with Stevie Wonder. As fate would have it, he asked the question, "Who played bass on "I Was Made To Love Her"? Stevie's exact words were, "That was James, didn't he play the s**t out of it?".
So, Stevie Wonder thinks it was James Jamerson. That's good enough for me.
So, Stevie Wonder thinks it was James Jamerson. That's good enough for me.
I'll tell you why not, because it's been discussed to death on this site and elsewhere and it has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread.
It's old, it's been debated, analyzed, broken down, reviewed, argued over, scrutinized and closed down numerous times.
If anybody wants to know about it, they can read Slutsky's account as it is pretty thorough and easy to find but it's obnoxious to come in to a thread on Carol Kaye and drag it down the same old tired path that has been visited numerous times before.
It's not that we don't believe you're passionate and knowledgeable about this subject, it's that we find discussing this as useful and worthwhile (and relevant) as fighting over who killed JFK.
Interesting, I've always known about Carol, but never new about the controversy. I'm going to have to dig a little for information.
I guess you'll just have to excuse me for being late to the party. I've just spent some time screensucking, and come away with appreciation for work done on this question over the last 8-9 years...and it's been that long since this issue last crossed my consciousness, but there you have it, and sorry not to have tracked it in the same timeframe as your own survey. For those who may be even less up-to-date than me, I recommend this link:
James Jamerson
Allan puts it best - no desire to besmirch Ms. Kaye, but as a Jamerson biographer, he had to call it. So it goes...insofar as this controversy has become a big part of the folklore concerning Ms Kaye, it pretty much comes with the territory in a thread about her...and when you think of it, to the extent the proposed film tracks the "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" motif of "unknown studio geniuses...this is their story...," reference to Motown is even that much more appropriate. Derivative is as derivative does? Which is a shame, because Ms. Kaye's story should stand on its own, based on her genuine accomplishments, but it's hard to ignore a controversy that she herself sparked.
rockstarbassist
Inactive
emor said:
I guess Carol Kaye MAY have played on IWMTLH...The BEACH BOYS version. Not a bad track, but except for the Beach Boys patented background vocals, the lead singing sucks. I may not have enough barf bags handy to endure Bernadette in the same format.
True...so MUCH of her stuff is amazing...which is what makes those Motown claims so weird, so off, so out there...
