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High Pass Filter (HPF) and Low Pass Filter (LPF) Mega Thread

@Zbysek posted the following in the thread: Which NS Designs upright?

Good news: you don't need to spend too much. Higher models feature magnetic pick ups which you don't need...for acoustic sound, you need piezzo pick up which is available on cheaper models (like NXT).

The treble can EQ'd out.

There have been some good tips posted in this thread (especially by ArtechnikA).

I will add one more: set your HPF between 40-70 Hz to cut off the fundemantal...
 
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I have only recently stumbled upon HPF-pedals and have been reading up on them over the last couple days. There really is a lot of valuable, useful information on this forum, you guys are great! I get why utilizing a HPF while playing through a modern, high-powered digital amp makes sense, however I'm not sure wether a HP-filter would make sense with an old, low wattage tube amp like my Fender Bassman Ten (50w, 4x10 combo), too?

Ideally, I'd like to free a little headroom for the frequencies I can actually hear, since the amp is inherently underpowered. If the overall mix in the room is getting better, by shelving those frequencies, that'd of course be great, too.
 
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I have only recently stumbled upon HPF-pedals and have been reading up on them over the last couple days. There really is a lot of valuable, useful information on this forum, you guys are great! I get why utilizing a HPF while playing through a modern, high-powered digital amp makes sense, however I'm not sure wether a HP-filter would make sense with an old, low wattage tube amp like my Fender Bassman Ten (50w, 4x10 combo), too?

Ideally, I'd like to free a little headroom for the frequencies I can actually hear, since the amp is inherently underpowered. If the overall mix in the room is getting better, by shelving those frequencies, that'd of course be great, too.

It may be more important to use an HPF on older amps, especially 'underpowered' ones. These old amps might not have an HPF built in (designed in) and be wasting valuable energy trying to reproduce bastard subsonic frequencies.
 
I have only recently stumbled upon HPF-pedals and have been reading up on them over the last couple days. There really is a lot of valuable, useful information on this forum, you guys are great! I get why utilizing a HPF while playing through a modern, high-powered digital amp makes sense, however I'm not sure wether a HP-filter would make sense with an old, low wattage tube amp like my Fender Bassman Ten (50w, 4x10 combo), too?

Ideally, I'd like to free a little headroom for the frequencies I can actually hear, since the amp is inherently underpowered. If the overall mix in the room is getting better, by shelving those frequencies, that'd of course be great, too.

It may be more important to use an HPF on older amps, especially 'underpowered' ones. These old amps might not have an HPF built in (designed in) and be wasting valuable energy trying to reproduce bastard subsonic frequencies.

And help protect your speakers.
 
Ideally, I'd like to free a little headroom for the frequencies I can actually hear, since the amp is inherently underpowered. If the overall mix in the room is getting better, by shelving those frequencies, that'd of course be great, too.
You've pretty much answered your own question.

I can't speak to the Bassman Ten, specifically, but a lot of tube amps have a very unfiltered response in the deep lows (depends on the output transformer, tone stack, and other things beyond my knowledge). This isn't all bad, but, as mentioned, can eat up power, maybe put some stress on those older speakers, and potentially contribute to muddy or blurry sound (even if the speakers aren't producing stage rumble, if they're struggling to produce very low frequencies, it can compromise the response to what comes above).

The signal coming out of an HPF (or any other pedal that acts as a buffer) is likely different in impedance than that coming straight from your bass, particularly if you are playing a passive instrument. There are some interesting interactions between the front ends of some amps and a passive bass when you fiddle with the controls on either that might not be there in exactly the same way when you use a pedal but, overall, especially for live use, I think you'll find an HPF to be advantageous.

I've said before that I don't use my HPF pedal as much as I should, but I've never taken it out and thought, "Gee, I wish I'd left this thing at home." I've loaned it out to two players, both of whom were experiencing headroom/mud/speaker stress issues (though at a much higher power level than that of your old Bassman), and both reported that it made a significant positive difference, playing live with a band.
 
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@Wasnex posted below in the following thread: Is the HPF hype real? I have a question though..and GAS

"IMHO an HPF is beneficial for many reasons. The most important is when you are using a ported speaker. In order to understand why, it would be helpful if you had some idea how ported cabs work.

With a ported speaker, at some low frequency point, the driver will begin to roll off. The port is tuned to start becoming active so that it reinforces and smoothly extends the low frequency response below this point.

A benefit here is, as the port becomes more resonant, it suppresses the drivers cone excursion. This continues until the port tuning frequency (Fb). Below Fb, output drops of very quickly and driver excursion increases dramatically. So, there really is very little benefit in running a ported cab much below Fb, because it does not efficiently produce sound and, if pushed hard, the driver will exceed its excursion limits and incur damage.

This is related to the mechanical power handling limits of the design which is determined by the drivers T/S parameters, the volume of the cab, and the dimensions of the port(s). Often a designs mechanical limits below 100hz are less than the driver's RMS power rating.

If you look at the various charts in the attached documents you should be able see what I am talking about. See PDF: Speaker charts and graphs

Notice the Deltalite 2512 has a 250W RMS rating and Xmas is 4.9mm

Take a look at the first design in the cabinet design doc. The notes say: "Displacement Limited to 125 Watts; F3 of 64 Hz. Use a steep high pass filter set to 35 Hz to protect your woofer."

If you look at the graph on p. 2 labeled "Cone Displacement (mm/Hz) with 125 watts," you should be able to understand why the note makes sense. Port resonance (Fb) for this design is 44hz. Note that driver excursion decreases as the frequency approaches 44 hz and then quickly increases to Xmax of 4.9mm at ~35hz, which is the recommended HPF frequency. Keep in mind the HPF will be 3dB down at 35hz. Without an HPF, the driver's excursion will be almost 8mm if 30hz is applied at 125W.

One reason you can usually get away with using a ported speaker safely with bass guitar is because the instrument does not produce a strong fundamental to begin with.

To understand, take a look at this thread: Bass frequency/waterfall plots: what they mean to rigs So if you don't artificially pump up the lows an excessive amount, the electric bass has sort of a natural HPF built in. But you can still get some low frequency crud that is not harmonically related to the notes you are playing. Filtering this crud out can significantly improve the sound.

In my experience, an HPF is most beneficial when your speakers are trying to reproduce frequencies below their pass band. Preventing the speakers from trying to reproduce frequencies they are not designed to handle allows them to work better in their intended pass band.

Although less critical, an HPF can also tighten up your sound with speakers that are capable of extended low frequency response. Here the benefit is partly related to the type of sound you want and also partly related to limiting the range of the bass to what is necessary to sound good, so it does not cause other problems.

The next part of this post will get into sort of a larger world-view of the benefit of HPFs:

Low frequencies tend to build up and create a reverberant field that causes the low end to sound boomy and undefined. If the decay time is long enough, the resultant sound field will tend to mask the direct sound of low frequency instruments. In other words the audience will hear more of the incoherent reverberant field than direct sound coming from amps and PA speakers. This problem is compounded because there are usually multiple sound sources, so the sound from each sound source arrives at the listeners position at a slightly different time causing phase and other timing issues. One solution to masking is to put less energy into problem frequencies.

Typically, frequency slotting is used in mixing, so for example a choice may be made to reduce the extreme low end of the base guitar to make room for the bass drum. An HPF can be applied to both the bass drum and bass guitar, but of course the knee will be at different frequencies for each instrument. Basically the HPF is rolled up until it start thinning to sound to an undesirable degree, and then you back it down a bit from there.

When I mix, I tend to apply a variable HPF to every channel. If the vocal mics are allowed to run full range, they will pick up and amplify low frequencies. Keep in mind that both the low frequency sound sources and microphones are in different locations, so any low frequencies picked up by the mics will further compound the masking problem by introducing low frequencies with different phase angles and other timing issues. Usually I can run the HPF on a male vocal mic up around 150-180hz, and the HPF on female mics can usually be run even higher. I often run the HPF on guitars up around 180hz as well. I usually start with a 100hz HPF on all monitor wedges."
 
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@Wasnex posted:

IMHO an HPF is beneficial for many reasons. The most important is when you are using a ported speaker. In order to understand why it would be helpful if you had some idea how ported cabs work.

With a ported speaker at some low frequency point, the driver will begin to roll off. The port is tuned to start becoming active so that it reinforces and smoothly extends the low frequency response below this point. A benefit here is, as the port becomes more resonant, it suppresses the drivers cone excursion. This continues until the port tuning frequency (Fb). Below Fb, output drops of very quickly and driver excursion increases dramatically. So there really is very little benefit in running a ported cab much below Fb, because it does not efficiently produce sound and, if pushed hard, the driver will exceed its excursion limits and incur damage. This is related to the mechanical power handling limits of the design which is determined by the drivers T/S parameters, the volume of the cab, and the dimensions of the port(s). Often a designs mechanical limits below 100hz are less than the driver's RMS power rating.

If you look at the various charts in the attached documents you should be able see what I am talking about.

Notice the Deltalite 2512 has a 250W RMS rating and Xmas is 4.9mm

Take a look at the first design in the cabinet design doc. The notes say: "Displacement Limited to 125 Watts; F3 of 64 Hz. Use a steep high pass filter set to 35 Hz to protect your woofer."

If you look at the graph on p. 2 labeled "Cone Displacement (mm/Hz) with 125 watts," you should be able to understand why the note makes sense. Port resonance (Fb) for this design is 44hz. Note that driver excursion decreases as the frequency approaches 44 hz and then quickly increases to Xmax of 4.9mm at ~35hz, which is the recommended HPF frequency. Keep in mind the HPF will be 3dB down at 35hz. Without an HPF, the driver's excursion will be almost 8mm if 30hz is applied at 125W.

One reason you can usually get away with using a ported speaker safely with bass guitar is because the instrument does not produce a strong fundamental to begin with. To understand, take a look at this thread: URL='Bass']Bass frequency/waterfall plots: what they mean to rigs frequency/waterfall plots: what they mean to rigs[/URL] So if you don't artificially pump up the lows an excessive amount, the electric bass has sort of a natural HPF built in. But you can still get some low frequency crud that is not harmonically related to the notes you are playing. Filtering this crud out can significant improve the sound.

In my experience an HPF is most beneficial when you speakers are trying to reproduce frequencies below their pass band. Preventing the speakers from trying to reproduce frequencies they are not designed to handle allows them to work better in their intended pass band.

Although less critical, an HPF can also tighten up your sound with speakers that are capable of extended low frequency response. Here the benefit is partly related to the type of sound you want and also partly related to limiting the range of the bass to what is necessary to sound good, so it does not cause other problems.

The next part of this post will get into sort of a larger world-view of the benefit of HPFs:

Low frequencies tend to build up and create a reverberant field that causes the low end to sound boomy and undefined. If the decay time is long enough, the resultant sound field will tend to mask the direct sound of low frequency instruments. In other words the audience will hear more of the incoherent reverberant field than direct sound coming from amps and PA speakers. This problem is compounded because there are usually multiple sound sources, so the sound from each sound source arrives at the listeners position at a slightly different time causing phase and other timing issues. One solution to masking is to put less energy into problem frequencies.

Typically frequency slotting is used in mixing, so for example a choice may be made to reduce the extreme low end of the base guitar to make room for the bass drum. An HPF can be applied to both the bass drum and bass guitar, but of course the knee will be at different frequencies for each instrument. Basically the HPF is rolled up until it start thinning to sound to an undesirable degree, and then you back it down a bit from there.

When I mix, I tend to apply a variable HPF to every channel. If the vocal mics are allowed to run full range, they will pick up and amplify low frequencies. Keep in mind that both the low frequency sound sources and microphones are in different locations, so any low frequencies picked up by the mics will further compound the masking problem by introducing low frequencies with different phase angles and other timing issues. Usually I can run the HPF on a male vocal mic up around 150-180hz, and the HPF on female mics can usually be run even higher. I often run the HPF on guitars up around 180hz as well. I usually start with a 100hz HPF on all monitor wedges.
The 2512 spec sheet and cab design doc I referenced in the quoted post are attached here for anyone who is interested.
 

Attachments

The 2512 spec sheet and cab design doc I referenced in the quoted post are attached here for anyone who is interested.
Real data with supporting documentation/proof points just makes the folklore and opinion arguments pale in comparison. :thumbsup:
 
@Wasnex posted:

IMHO an HPF is beneficial for many reasons. The most important is when you are using a ported speaker. In order to understand why it would be helpful if you had some idea how ported cabs work.

With a ported speaker at some low frequency point, the driver will begin to roll off. The port is tuned to start becoming active so that it reinforces and smoothly extends the low frequency response below this point. A benefit here is, as the port becomes more resonant, it suppresses the drivers cone excursion. This continues until the port tuning frequency (Fb). Below Fb, output drops of very quickly and driver excursion increases dramatically. So there really is very little benefit in running a ported cab much below Fb, because it does not efficiently produce sound and, if pushed hard, the driver will exceed its excursion limits and incur damage. This is related to the mechanical power handling limits of the design which is determined by the drivers T/S parameters, the volume of the cab, and the dimensions of the port(s). Often a designs mechanical limits below 100hz are less than the driver's RMS power rating.

If you look at the various charts in the attached documents you should be able see what I am talking about.

Notice the Deltalite 2512 has a 250W RMS rating and Xmas is 4.9mm

Take a look at the first design in the cabinet design doc. The notes say: "Displacement Limited to 125 Watts; F3 of 64 Hz. Use a steep high pass filter set to 35 Hz to protect your woofer."

If you look at the graph on p. 2 labeled "Cone Displacement (mm/Hz) with 125 watts," you should be able to understand why the note makes sense. Port resonance (Fb) for this design is 44hz. Note that driver excursion decreases as the frequency approaches 44 hz and then quickly increases to Xmax of 4.9mm at ~35hz, which is the recommended HPF frequency. Keep in mind the HPF will be 3dB down at 35hz. Without an HPF, the driver's excursion will be almost 8mm if 30hz is applied at 125W.

One reason you can usually get away with using a ported speaker safely with bass guitar is because the instrument does not produce a strong fundamental to begin with. To understand, take a look at this thread: URL='Bass']Bass frequency/waterfall plots: what they mean to rigs frequency/waterfall plots: what they mean to rigs[/URL] So if you don't artificially pump up the lows an excessive amount, the electric bass has sort of a natural HPF built in. But you can still get some low frequency crud that is not harmonically related to the notes you are playing. Filtering this crud out can significant improve the sound.

In my experience an HPF is most beneficial when you speakers are trying to reproduce frequencies below their pass band. Preventing the speakers from trying to reproduce frequencies they are not designed to handle allows them to work better in their intended pass band.

Although less critical, an HPF can also tighten up your sound with speakers that are capable of extended low frequency response. Here the benefit is partly related to the type of sound you want and also partly related to limiting the range of the bass to what is necessary to sound good, so it does not cause other problems.

The next part of this post will get into sort of a larger world-view of the benefit of HPFs:

Low frequencies tend to build up and create a reverberant field that causes the low end to sound boomy and undefined. If the decay time is long enough, the resultant sound field will tend to mask the direct sound of low frequency instruments. In other words the audience will hear more of the incoherent reverberant field than direct sound coming from amps and PA speakers. This problem is compounded because there are usually multiple sound sources, so the sound from each sound source arrives at the listeners position at a slightly different time causing phase and other timing issues. One solution to masking is to put less energy into problem frequencies.

Typically frequency slotting is used in mixing, so for example a choice may be made to reduce the extreme low end of the base guitar to make room for the bass drum. An HPF can be applied to both the bass drum and bass guitar, but of course the knee will be at different frequencies for each instrument. Basically the HPF is rolled up until it start thinning to sound to an undesirable degree, and then you back it down a bit from there.

When I mix, I tend to apply a variable HPF to every channel. If the vocal mics are allowed to run full range, they will pick up and amplify low frequencies. Keep in mind that both the low frequency sound sources and microphones are in different locations, so any low frequencies picked up by the mics will further compound the masking problem by introducing low frequencies with different phase angles and other timing issues. Usually I can run the HPF on a male vocal mic up around 150-180hz, and the HPF on female mics can usually be run even higher. I often run the HPF on guitars up around 180hz as well. I usually start with a 100hz HPF on all monitor wedges.
You are damn RIGHT!!!!
 
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It may be more important to use an HPF on older amps, especially 'underpowered' ones. These old amps might not have an HPF built in (designed in) and be wasting valuable energy trying to reproduce bastard subsonic frequencies.

And help protect your speakers.

You've pretty much answered your own question.

I can't speak to the Bassman Ten, specifically, but a lot of tube amps have a very unfiltered response in the deep lows (depends on the output transformer, tone stack, and other things beyond my knowledge). This isn't all bad, but, as mentioned, can eat up power, maybe put some stress on those older speakers, and potentially contribute to muddy or blurry sound (even if the speakers aren't producing stage rumble, if they're struggling to produce very low frequencies, it can compromise the response to what comes above).

The signal coming out of an HPF (or any other pedal that acts as a buffer) is likely different in impedance than that coming straight from your bass, particularly if you are playing a passive instrument. There are some interesting interactions between the front ends of some amps and a passive bass when you fiddle with the controls on either that might not be there in exactly the same way when you use a pedal but, overall, especially for live use, I think you'll find an HPF to be advantageous.

I've said before that I don't use my HPF pedal as much as I should, but I've never taken it out and thought, "Gee, I wish I'd left this thing at home." I've loaned it out to two players, both of whom were experiencing headroom/mud/speaker stress issues (though at a much higher power level than that of your old Bassman), and both reported that it made a significant positive difference, playing live with a band.

Thanks to all of you for responding. That actually makes a lot of sense, I'll give it a whirl. I've already ordered an affordable DIY-kit, so I can try wether or not I want or need a HPF pedal. If I really like it, I might go for a Broughton at some point down the road.
 
Thanks to all of you for responding. That actually makes a lot of sense, I'll give it a whirl. I've already ordered an affordable DIY-kit, so I can try wether or not I want or need a HPF pedal. If I really like it, I might go for a Broughton at some point down the road.

You NEED it plain and simple. You just don’t realize it yet. If you’re playing in and band and gigging then there’s no ifs and or buts about it. I use the Broughton H/LPF unit and I’m very happy with it.
 
Nice thread!
What about Rickenbackers and Hofners and such? Would you use HPF on those or is it more B string oriented?
From analyzing Rick and Hofner frequencies when recording I noticed these guitars have somewhat of a natural HPF.

There’s no such thing as a “natural” HPF. For the rest of your question I suggest actually reading this thread.
 
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Sorry for the long gap, work's been busy ...
So first - as noted, I was looking for an ultra portable rig. I like the idea of being able to swap out different preamps depending on my gig and/or whims, so I put together two pedal boards to test with.
The first one is just an HX Helix FX that i simply used with a variety of preamps. The second is a small board with "the essentials" - a Broughton HPF, micro tuner, Synth pedal, envelope filter, three band parametric EQ, and a preamp that I could swap out as needed.
As a side note, I put together this second mini-board and ended up parting it out as I found that I really didn't need all of that. I put together another, even smaller board, consisting of the tuner, HPF, and a single band parametric EQ. The HX Effects plus a preamp did everything the small board did and more, and ended up being even more portable.
My plan was to use the pedal boards in conjunction with the pedal board amps and a small speaker. Very portable and very flexible.

The HPF was key part of this - by trimming just a little bit of the low end using the HPF, i was able to get significantly more volume out of the smaller speakers.

The single band parametric was needed to switch between fretted and fretless - i found the three band to be overkill for my needs.
Speakers tested:
Trace Elliot Elf 2x8
Trace Elliot Elf 1x10
Barefaced 1x10
Markbass Traveller 2x10
Aguilar 1x12NT
Markbass Traveller 1x12
Preamps tested (some benefited from a Radial JDI)
Darkglass B7K Ultra v2
Eden WTDI
Trace Elliot SM-7
Aguilar Tone Hammer
Sansamp VT
Sansamp Para DI
EBS Valvedrive DI
GK Plex
A few others that I can't remember right now ...

Basses:
Mostly Jazz-style basses with active and passive electronics, including 4, 5, and 6 strings, fretted and fretless, vintage and modern, including a 64 Jazz, a 72 Jazz, a 74 Jazz with EMG active pups, several Sadowsky basses (including 5 strings), a Warwick Thumb fretless, and an F Bass fretless 6 string. Others as well, check out my profile for the full list.

First impressions:
These are two very different approaches to pedal board amps. The Sumo is built like a tank. It's solid and heavy duty. The SA is lighter and made with thinner materials.

The Sumo is much, much heavier and is twice the size of the SA. The SA, while lighter and smaller, seems less durable. The question I had to ask myself - am I looking for something more portable (SA) or more durable (Sumo)?

The fan in the SA was a little loud, so i replaced it with an ultra-quiet, high airflow computer fan that I got from Amazon. I'm not sure if the fan was damaged in transit or it is just a louder model, but $9 later and now the fan is ultra quiet.

So i tried them both with all the preamps and speakers above. Both sounded great! I felt the Sumo was a little louder and had a little more headroom, but i didn't feel like it made that much of a difference - both are gig worthy and could easily fill a small/medium size room and would be perfect for a lot of gigs, especially where portability is a factor.

Neither had any noticeable distortion, and both benefited from the HPF (although this may have been a speaker limitation as well). Neither had any issues with a low B.

Next up: Conclusions!
 
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Sorry for the long gap, work's been busy ...
So first - as noted, I was looking for an ultra portable rig. I like the idea of being able to swap out different preamps depending on my gig and/or whims, so I put together two pedal boards to test with.
The first one is just an HX Helix FX that i simply used with a variety of preamps. The second is a small board with "the essentials" - a Broughton HPF, micro tuner, Synth pedal, envelope filter, three band parametric EQ, and a preamp that I could swap out as needed.
As a side note, I put together this second mini-board and ended up parting it out as I found that I really didn't need all of that. I put together another, even smaller board, consisting of the tuner, HPF, and a single band parametric EQ. The HX Effects plus a preamp did everything the small board did and more, and ended up being even more portable.
My plan was to use the pedal boards in conjunction with the pedal board amps and a small speaker. Very portable and very flexible.

The HPF was key part of this - by trimming just a little bit of the low end using the HPF, i was able to get significantly more volume out of the smaller speakers.

The single band parametric was needed to switch between fretted and fretless - i found the three band to be overkill for my needs.
Speakers tested:
Trace Elliot Elf 2x8
Trace Elliot Elf 1x10
Barefaced 1x10
Markbass Traveller 2x10
Aguilar 1x12NT
Markbass Traveller 1x12
Preamps tested (some benefited from a Radial JDI)
Darkglass B7K Ultra v2
Eden WTDI
Trace Elliot SM-7
Aguilar Tone Hammer
Sansamp VT
Sansamp Para DI
EBS Valvedrive DI
GK Plex
A few others that I can't remember right now ...

Basses:
Mostly Jazz-style basses with active and passive electronics, including 4, 5, and 6 strings, fretted and fretless, vintage and modern, including a 64 Jazz, a 72 Jazz, a 74 Jazz with EMG active pups, several Sadowsky basses (including 5 strings), a Warwick Thumb fretless, and an F Bass fretless 6 string. Others as well, check out my profile for the full list.

First impressions:
These are two very different approaches to pedal board amps. The Sumo is built like a tank. It's solid and heavy duty. The SA is lighter and made with thinner materials.

The Sumo is much, much heavier and is twice the size of the SA. The SA, while lighter and smaller, seems less durable. The question I had to ask myself - am I looking for something more portable (SA) or more durable (Sumo)?

The fan in the SA was a little loud, so i replaced it with an ultra-quiet, high airflow computer fan that I got from Amazon. I'm not sure if the fan was damaged in transit or it is just a louder model, but $9 later and now the fan is ultra quiet.

So i tried them both with all the preamps and speakers above. Both sounded great! I felt the Sumo was a little louder and had a little more headroom, but i didn't feel like it made that much of a difference - both are gig worthy and could easily fill a small/medium size room and would be perfect for a lot of gigs, especially where portability is a factor.

Neither had any noticeable distortion, and both benefited from the HPF (although this may have been a speaker limitation as well). Neither had any issues with a low B.

Next up: Conclusions!
This came from my thread that I started on pedal board amps. It's worth noting above that I put together a mini board with the absolute bare essentials for me - tuner, 1 band parametric, Hpf. Add a pedal preamp/di and I am set!
 
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