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How do I fix the mid scoop on a PJ?
- Thread starter Elmstreet
- Start date
Go to your amp and select the "low-mid" control in your EQ. Anywhere between 250Hz (where I normally set mine) and 550Hz will work. Now boost it to about 1:30 and give it a try.
The reason that "mid-scoop" sounds OK by yourself is that you are not playing at gig level and the mids are easier than the bass or treble to hear at lower levels. To get that same sound at higher levels, especially when playing with a group, you need to boost the low-mids a bit. If you boost them too much, your sound will honk at you. If that happens just slowly dial the boost down until the honk disappears. I use a passive Jazz with all my controls on the bass dimed and typically run my Eden or DNA amps flat with the exception of some small boost in the low mids.
If I have semi-parametric controls, I'll boost the low mids up to about 1:30 right around 250Hz because I like the sound I get. I'll do that with my Big, class AB, Eden WT500/800, and also my class D, Eden TN-226 amp. If I'm using my DNA-800 amp or my WTDI which is a DI stompbox with a built-in Eden WT preamp, I'll boost it at 500Hz because that's the only low mid frequency available to me with those two. If I am recording at a pro studio, I will put that slight boost of the low-mids at 500Hz because my bass records freaking great on the raw takes like that.
Before you start swapping out electronics, try adding a little boost in the low-mids. Those low-mids are what gives the bass presence and definition in the mix. The bass drum owns the lows, the guitars and keys eat up the high-mids and highs and the bass owns the low-mids...so use them! Also, just as FYI, adding distortion to your bass makes it much harder to hear you in the mix. So try it without the overdrive or distortion with just the low-mids boosted and after you get a good listen to that, go ahead and add the distortion. I think you'll see that you are much easier to hear in the mix with a clear sound and a little boost in the low-mids.
Below is a clip from a few years ago where I'm playing with the J Badders Band at Evelyn's Tavern near Clear Lake. We're playing "Somebody to Love" by the Jefferson Airplane, which has a fairly active bass part. I'm playing my '82 Jazz through an Eden WT500/800 into two 4Ω Eden EX-112 compact cabs. This amp is a dual powerblock amp, so I have one cab plugged into each power channel of my amp. I strive for a clean, clear, and articulate sound and this rig delivered it nicely for me for a couple of years before I got my DNA Endorsement.
You'll see that the bass is well defined and easily heard without the need to raise the level up so high it buries the rest of our 5-pc band. The recording was from a friend's iPhone, so it's not a great recording but you can easily hear every note I'm playing throughout this song. The only boost was 250Hz in the low mids up to 1:30 on the boost/cut dial. Everything else is set flat, the compressor is bypassed and the Enhance control (Shape) is turned to the off position. Unfortunately the vocalist, Joan, is on the other side of the stage and you might get a glimpse of her every now and then between myself and our lead guitarist. This was just the second time we'd performed it. But that is what a slight boost in the low-mids can do for you.
but only if you have a tortoise pickguard and also fire the drummer
I think this very issue is what Pat Wilkins addresses with his P/J basses. He moves the bridge pickup much closer to the neck pickup. I have one of these and my favorite setting is both pickups selected (mine has a 3 way pickup selector, not a blend or Vol/Vol setup) I like the tone both soloed at home and when I was with the band. Strong, forceful tone that didn't get lost at all. I realize this is not a possible solution for you but maybe it is some further food for thought.
This is what he does:
Even the soloed bridge pickup tone is useful when a thinner yet fuller than usual bridge pickup tone is desired.
Also, I find GHS Pressurewounds help on this bass.
This is what he does:
Even the soloed bridge pickup tone is useful when a thinner yet fuller than usual bridge pickup tone is desired.
Also, I find GHS Pressurewounds help on this bass.
That's my solution, and it's always the J I back off of slightly. Or I leave it off and just go full P, which is my favorite way.
I particularly dislike the timbre of the top strings (P part closer to bridge), as I dislike all tones of pickups too close together (bottom strings of a PJ sound more like a Jazz Bass). And the scoop itself is (IME) harder to deal with than that of a Jazz Bass with both pickups on.
I'd try to determine what frequency the scoop that bothers you is around ("scoop" might mean a different place for different ears, but usually we're meaning mid to low mid region, say 1khz down to 200hz) and try to boost that in my EQ, OR attenuate what's interfering for it not to be heard, and adjust volume (which is many times the case, every room has its own resonance, we've all experienced those 3-4 semitones that make the room shake, those also obfuscate other frequencies you might need for clarity, you need to track and kill those a little).
Do you compress? Have you tried multiband? I think it's usually a great aid to keep you sounding thick AND present overall, no matter what note you're playing. Its response can be "manipulated" with the EQ curve you introduce before (pedal, preamp, whatever). EQ+compression should be a totally capable scheme to deal with scoop.
I'd try to determine what frequency the scoop that bothers you is around ("scoop" might mean a different place for different ears, but usually we're meaning mid to low mid region, say 1khz down to 200hz) and try to boost that in my EQ, OR attenuate what's interfering for it not to be heard, and adjust volume (which is many times the case, every room has its own resonance, we've all experienced those 3-4 semitones that make the room shake, those also obfuscate other frequencies you might need for clarity, you need to track and kill those a little).
Do you compress? Have you tried multiband? I think it's usually a great aid to keep you sounding thick AND present overall, no matter what note you're playing. Its response can be "manipulated" with the EQ curve you introduce before (pedal, preamp, whatever). EQ+compression should be a totally capable scheme to deal with scoop.
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"Alone tone" is always radically different than "in the mix tone." What's the problem with simply adjusting to each scenario? That's why your rig has controls.
I'm kinda surprised it was said less than 15 times on the first page- Bedroomtone =/= Bandtone
I think the answer for you will be "Active Bass".
I prefer using passive P tones with bands and only like actives at home, but when you want that shimmering scoop, I think you've probably got to have an active eq. Maybe a comp too?
You can try a Sadowky pedal pre, but I think you'd do well to rent/borrow a Spector, Warwick, and a StingRay. There's a non-zero possibility that I don't like using Actives in a band setting because I still don't have an HPF to tighten up the bottom after getting weird with the knobs(?).
Using a DAW with EZDrummer, some cheap Epiphone or Ibanez guitar, and having at least one or two of the pedals your guitarist(s) use most to create demo tracks can help a lot in choosing what bass, strings, and eq will work best to support your band without bugging your band with your experiments.
I think the answer for you will be "Active Bass".
I prefer using passive P tones with bands and only like actives at home, but when you want that shimmering scoop, I think you've probably got to have an active eq. Maybe a comp too?
You can try a Sadowky pedal pre, but I think you'd do well to rent/borrow a Spector, Warwick, and a StingRay. There's a non-zero possibility that I don't like using Actives in a band setting because I still don't have an HPF to tighten up the bottom after getting weird with the knobs(?).
Using a DAW with EZDrummer, some cheap Epiphone or Ibanez guitar, and having at least one or two of the pedals your guitarist(s) use most to create demo tracks can help a lot in choosing what bass, strings, and eq will work best to support your band without bugging your band with your experiments.
turn your amp up and use an overdrive?
You just need to add a little more Presence or High mids. That's around 1kHz, but YMMV.
Sansamp does this great with combination of Drive and Presence.
Sansamp does this great with combination of Drive and Presence.
I don't think any of your proposed solutions work to eliminate the scoop, tho they will sound different and possibly better (or possibly worse). Scoop occurs every time you run two pickups together. Whether series or parallel, or whatever pickups you use, the scoop is there. You also cannot exactly EQ it out, since those frequencies are lost.
It's harder to make the scooped sound work, but some have managed. For a classic, guitar-driven rock bass tone, I think of Duff in GNR (or both Mikes in Alice in Chains, tho they used Spectors). All of them play(ed) with a pick, that may be part of the solution. I think Duff played GK amps back in the day (not sure now), so try to understand how those color/EQ the sound. Not sure what Mikes played, but I think their tone was driven by the Spector and the EMGs...
What I personally found gave me the best "PJ" tone was soloing a bright P bass wired in parallel, and loading it with small caps. Parallel extends the P range into the high register and increases the resonant peak (volume). Caps help fine tune the resonant frequency. There's the extended upper range with a pronounced (and tunable) peak in high mids/trebles (what I wanted the J to do), but no mid scoop. Win!
It's harder to make the scooped sound work, but some have managed. For a classic, guitar-driven rock bass tone, I think of Duff in GNR (or both Mikes in Alice in Chains, tho they used Spectors). All of them play(ed) with a pick, that may be part of the solution. I think Duff played GK amps back in the day (not sure now), so try to understand how those color/EQ the sound. Not sure what Mikes played, but I think their tone was driven by the Spector and the EMGs...
What I personally found gave me the best "PJ" tone was soloing a bright P bass wired in parallel, and loading it with small caps. Parallel extends the P range into the high register and increases the resonant peak (volume). Caps help fine tune the resonant frequency. There's the extended upper range with a pronounced (and tunable) peak in high mids/trebles (what I wanted the J to do), but no mid scoop. Win!
I have to battle 3 heavily driven guitars sometimes. This is what I do..
Favour the bridge pickup until you hear a drop in bass. Depending on setup, this means either blend slightly to bridge or lower neck pickup volume.
Then at the amp, raise the output volume until you hear yourself. You won't hear any bass yet, just midrange. Keep going until midrange is satisfied.
Now, raise bass controls at amp to bring bass back in.
If this seems too much, then just kill the bridge pickup and go P all the way.
Oh, and overdrive goes really well with scooped mids to bring them back in.
Favour the bridge pickup until you hear a drop in bass. Depending on setup, this means either blend slightly to bridge or lower neck pickup volume.
Then at the amp, raise the output volume until you hear yourself. You won't hear any bass yet, just midrange. Keep going until midrange is satisfied.
Now, raise bass controls at amp to bring bass back in.
If this seems too much, then just kill the bridge pickup and go P all the way.
Oh, and overdrive goes really well with scooped mids to bring them back in.
Free, versatile and effective. This is exactly why amps have tone controls.
All the suggestions to try other pickups or different wiring options are valid but they involve an investment in either time or money or both and may not get you what you need or they may work great for this particular situation but be less ideal down the road. I'm all for tinkering and I enjoy it but when I need a certain sound on the bandstand I use the amp's tone controls because they're the right tool for the job. …and they'll do that job regardless of the bass I'm using, the band I'm in or the room we're playing.
The best fix is pulling the volume down on one pickup, but you discussed that. Having series mode would also help a lot and I think would be more effective than EQ alone. I wouldn't bother changing pickups for just this reason, unless there are other reasons you want to do so.
Series mode on a 2 pickup bass will definitely change that mid scoop characteristic. I find that it boosts low mid and volume quite a bit, which does help cut through nicely.
A lot of my bass builds have incorporated the series feature and when I'm playing with the band, I definitely feel that it helps when I need to have that extra bit of juice to really cut through better.
It's an easy mod (whether you use Vol-Vol or pan for pickup mixing, doesn't matter), it's cheap to accomplish (compared to other options) and if you did that with the Dimarzio PJ set, I'd be shocked if you didn't notice a rather potent difference.
A lot of my bass builds have incorporated the series feature and when I'm playing with the band, I definitely feel that it helps when I need to have that extra bit of juice to really cut through better.
It's an easy mod (whether you use Vol-Vol or pan for pickup mixing, doesn't matter), it's cheap to accomplish (compared to other options) and if you did that with the Dimarzio PJ set, I'd be shocked if you didn't notice a rather potent difference.
