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How do I fix the mid scoop on a PJ?

How do I fix the mid scoop on a PJ?
Three ways:
1) use only the P pickup;
2) use an overwound P pickup and only roll on the J just a little bit to get a little brighter articulation;
3) boost the mids on your bass if active, on the head if miked, or ask your sound tech to boost your mids if you go D.I.
 
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I play a J and a PJ equally these days, and run through a GK amp. I typically keep both pickups on full or blended 50/50 on the PJ. I've found that I can almost dial in good tones in both gig settings and bedroom simply by setting everything like I want, and toggling the "contour" button on my MB212 combo. Turning it off results in a more flat and harsh sound in my bedroom, but it sounds great in a live setting. Turning it on results in a more scooped sound that is pleasant while practicing in my bedroom. I rarely tweak my EQ knobs unless I'm in a really extreme gig setting and need to boost the heck out of a particular range to be heard.

Here's GK's description of what the Contour button does on the MB combos.
View attachment 5483461

There's a contour on the Genzler Magellan amp I use, as well as on the Genzler Pre pedal that I use when ampless. (most of the time). It has two different countour types and with a separate dial that determines how much contour. It's really helpful in the amber mode (blue is scooped). You can start with it flat and then dial up how much of that shape you want.
 
The problem with this, is that my overall tone and drive sound way different with just a P pickup, so all time I've spent messing with my tone and getting my "grit" just right is all changed. Everything gets muddy, I have less note definition, it's like I turned on a fuzz pedal and increased the gain.

You need to spend that time dialing the tone and drive in context of the band. It makes no sense to dial in sounds at home at "bedroom volume" and expect them to work in the full mix at "gig volume" with the rest of the band. Spend your time in rehearsal dialing in those things and then just accept it when you're playing by yourself at home, or remember how to get back to that with the band.

This method works regardless of whether you solo a pickup or use both full-up. You just have to dial it in for the moment and don't obsess over having previously spent time in an irrelevant situation.

And, the same goes for the rest of the band - the guitarists, especially, should be dialing in sounds in the full context of the band with the drums and bass. Guitars can take up ALL the sonic space if they're allowed. Instead of boosting the bass midrange to compete with the guitars, the guitars should dial back their lows to allow more room for the bass. It's a give-and-take situation for both of you.
 
How do I fix the mid scoop on a PJ?

When I'm at home practicing and messing around with my tone, I like the clarity and the way drive/grind sounds when P and J are both on full.

When I get to rehearsal or to a gig I just disappear in my band that has 2 distorted guitars. I end up just favoring the P pickup for the gig or rehearsal.

The problem with this, is that my overall tone and drive sound way different with just a P pickup, so all time I've spent messing with my tone and getting my "grit" just right is all changed. Everything gets muddy, I have less note definition, it's like I turned on a fuzz pedal and increased the gain.

I'm learning about the "scoop" that happens with J basses and PJ basses, which makes sense as to why I'm disappearing in the mix. As I'm doing research on how to potentially fix this issue, I've come across a few different potential solutions, but I would love some feedback.

  1. Series / Parallel switch mod
  2. Swapping to mid heavy PJ set (Dimarzio Model PJ)
  3. Increase mids on amp/preamp to counteract the scoop

For context, I'm referring to a parts bass that has EMG Geezer PJ pickups.

I was just about to order a set of Dimarzio Model PJ pickups thinking that was the problem but I figured I better ask the experts.

Any and all feedback would be appreciated.
Leave your eq flat. If you're using a pick, bump up the bass, bump down the treble.

If you're not using a pick, you should try it.
 
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So here's the thing about mid scoop when discussing two-pickup instruments: It's not as simple as "X frequency is scooped so boost it" because each string has its own scoop frequency.

So the solution is to be a combination of a few factors-

-how you play, including and especially a) your right hand placement and b) what fret range on what strings you are choosing
- how you eq your instrument based on the previous point specifically
- circling back to how you play the instrument in terms of the previous two points

in other words, you have to let the bass inform the grammar of the musical language you speak through it, and not the other way around.

In a more general sense, it is a pretty classic educational benchmark for bassists to realize that 'if it sounds good alone, but bad in a mix, then it actually just sounds bad.' Or to translate it into something more fun, and less disappointing, We have to know in which moments the song and arrangement would sound great with bedroom tone, and which don't. If we do things right, The idealized version can often be such that we change the solo based tone such that when it's in the mix, it gives the illusion of having bedroom tone, when in reality the solo tone would sound much harsher or honkier or whatever by itself.



Now more practically, and based on my own experience, For those non-exposed moments when the base really has to support them mix rather than be featured, as a rule of thumb I tend to find that I need to favor one pick up over the other… For my purposes, I usually find that to be the P but for many others, it will be the J. In light of what I said earlier, once you have dialed in your physical and tonal approach to the instrument itself, a subtle boost to the mids in whatever range helps .. well.. helps. For some people/instrument combos, they need to add in the upper mid attack.. for others, it's the normally nasally middle-upper-mids that somehow sound amazing in a mix.. and for others they just need the and punch of the lower meds enhanced a bit. But again, none of these are because that frequency alone is what is scooped, but rather that the combination of our play style and the instruments quirks result in an average need for xyz.. again, each string will have its own distinct comb filtering, So, unless you only play on one string, it's not as simple as picking out whatever frequency gets scooped.





and as others, joked, the sound of the guitars does matter… if they are very middy and rooty, then something has to give between your place style, your bassline, and the instrument itself. I had a love-hate relationship with PJ instruments.. Part of that was that frankly, I just don't think fender PJ's are very good, whereas the cheapest Ibanez has an amazing PJ sound.. But the other part of the equation that took me a long time to figure out was that I really enjoyed playing PJ in funk and jazz groups, where keyboard was the main harmony, and luckily some very good guitarists Understood how to be a rhythm instrument AND UNDERSTOOD HOW TO MAKE THEIR TONE WORSE TO MAKE THEIR TONE BETTER, or else with no guitarist at all… It took me a while to realize that every time I was in a guitar heavy group I liked my tone a lot less on a PJ


I realize that a lot of that was a non-answer, but hopefully some of those reflections can help you to inform your approach, because I don't think there's a super easy answer other than 'play a different bass,' and I don't like that answer at all
 
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I don't have rehearsal or gigs for a week so all I can really do is play along to songs to test things out right now. It seems to me that boosting around 750hz is making a pretty big difference, but I'll have to test it with the full band.

I use an MXR M87 compressor which I don't think is multiband, I don't fully understand what it is. Is that a feature I need to look for if I upgrade my M87?

Your M87 is fine and will work as per to keep you thick if you dial it properly. A multi band compressor is just 2 compressors, one for lows, one for highs, which you can adjust independently, and also you can tune in the frequency at which your signal is split into highs/lows.
 
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So here's the thing about mid scoop when discussing two-pickup instruments: It's not as simple as "X frequency is scooped so boost it" because each string has its own scoop frequency.

So the solution is to be a combination of a few factors-

-how you play, including and especially a) your right hand placement and b) what fret range on what strings you are choosing
- how you eq your instrument based on the previous point specifically
- circling back to how you play the instrument in terms of the previous two points

in other words, you have to let the bass inform the grammar of the musical language you speak through it, and not the other way around.

In a more general sense, it is a pretty classic educational benchmark for bassists to realize that 'if it sounds good alone, but bad in a mix, then it actually just sounds bad.' Or to translate it into something more fun, and less disappointing, We have to know in which moments the song and arrangement would sound great with bedroom tone, and which don't. If we do things right, The idealized version can often be such that we change the solo based tone such that when it's in the mix, it gives the illusion of having bedroom tone, when in reality the solo tone would sound much harsher or honkier or whatever by itself.



Now more practically, and based on my own experience, For those non-exposed moments when the base really has to support them mix rather than be featured, as a rule of thumb I tend to find that I need to favor one pick up over the other… For my purposes, I usually find that to be the P but for many others, it will be the J. In light of what I said earlier, once you have dialed in your physical and tonal approach to the instrument itself, a subtle boost to the mids in whatever range helps .. well.. helps. For some people/instrument combos, they need to add in the upper mid attack.. for others, it's the normally nasally middle-upper-mids that somehow sound amazing in a mix.. and for others they just need the and punch of the lower meds enhanced a bit. But again, none of these are because that frequency alone is what is scooped, but rather that the combination of our play style and the instruments quirks result in an average need for xyz.. again, each string will have its own distinct comb filtering, So, unless you only play on one string, it's not as simple as picking out whatever frequency gets scooped.





and as others, joked, the sound of the guitars does matter… if they are very middy and rooty, then something has to give between your place style, your bassline, and the instrument itself. I had a love-hate relationship with PJ instruments.. Part of that was that frankly, I just don't think fender PJ's are very good, whereas the cheapest Ibanez has an amazing PJ sound.. But the other part of the equation that took me a long time to figure out was that I really enjoyed playing PJ in funk and jazz groups, where keyboard was the main harmony, and luckily some very good guitarists Understood how to be a rhythm instrument AND UNDERSTOOD HOW TO MAKE THEIR TONE WORSE TO MAKE THEIR TONE BETTER, or else with no guitarist at all… It took me a while to realize that every time I was in a guitar heavy group I liked my tone a lot less on a PJ


I realize that a lot of that was a non-answer, but hopefully some of those reflections can help you to inform your approach, because I don't think there's a super easy answer other than 'play a different bass,' and I don't like that answer at all

I appreciate the response, this was very helpful!
 
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How do I fix the mid scoop on a PJ?

Your question implies there is something incorrect, broken, or faulted with the mid scoop. There's nothing wrong. It's a feature, not a fault.

If you like the tone, you'll have to get it loud enough to hear over others in the band or get others in the band to lower their volume so you can hear it. If you want to change the tone, one way is to dial in a radical EQ adjustment resulting in a mid bump. Another way to achieve a mid bump is to change out the tone cap to a lesser value, like .022uF or even lower, like .015uF or .010uF. It might require some experimentation to get the cap that provides the bump, be doesn't completely wipe out your high end.
 
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I have Geezers in my Fender PJ and like others have said, I turn down one of the pickup's volume (for me, usually the bridge) and that works for me with this bass. On my Ric, I back off the neck pickup a little. I recently put in some Dimarzio's into my G&L jazz bass and i keep both volumes all the way up, which I dont normally do in PJs/Js/Rics.
 
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How do I fix the mid scoop on a PJ?

When I'm at home practicing and messing around with my tone, I like the clarity and the way drive/grind sounds when P and J are both on full.

When I get to rehearsal or to a gig I just disappear in my band that has 2 distorted guitars. I end up just favoring the P pickup for the gig or rehearsal.

The problem with this, is that my overall tone and drive sound way different with just a P pickup, so all time I've spent messing with my tone and getting my "grit" just right is all changed. Everything gets muddy, I have less note definition, it's like I turned on a fuzz pedal and increased the gain.

I'm learning about the "scoop" that happens with J basses and PJ basses, which makes sense as to why I'm disappearing in the mix. As I'm doing research on how to potentially fix this issue, I've come across a few different potential solutions, but I would love some feedback.

  1. Series / Parallel switch mod
  2. Swapping to mid heavy PJ set (Dimarzio Model PJ)
  3. Increase mids on amp/preamp to counteract the scoop

For context, I'm referring to a parts bass that has EMG Geezer PJ pickups.

I was just about to order a set of Dimarzio Model PJ pickups thinking that was the problem but I figured I better ask the experts.

Any and all feedback would be appreciated.
Every bass tone that sounds good by itself sucks in a band situation. You need to get an "ugly cardboard box tone" from your bass to sit in the mix. No smiley - just the other way around. Boost mids, cut ultra lows and highs...
 
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I appreciate the reply, solid playing by the way. I didn't realize that song had such a cool bass line, I want to go learn it now!

I'll give it a shot, I usually am cutting at 250, boosting 500 and 1.2k, but I'll try boosting all 3 and see what that does.
I appreciate the kind words. Thanks!

I doubt that boosting all three is going to help though because there may be too much boosting of frequencies to get that clarity that you want. Rather, try running the other frequencies flat and only boost the 500Hz. Then try the other 250Hz low-mid boosted and run the 500Hz and 1.2Khz flat. I'd consider the 1.2KHz as a high-mid and don't be surprised if the guitarist spends some time there and you may find yourself competing for that space.

When you find one that sounds good, you can add a second frequency to it to see if it improves the sound or muddles it up. Problem you're going to run into though is that your bass in the mix is not going to sound like your bass by itself. So ideally, Use one of the low-mid settings and run a few songs using it with the group. If that doesn't float your boat, try the small boost in the other low mid. Usually it only takes one of those to get you that presence and definition in the mix.
 
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I'm with the first reply from @ctmullins, though the active blend won't really help the inherent 2-pickup phase-cancellation mid-scoop (it'll just eliminate the loading effect of the pickups on each-other which is a nice benefit for other reasons).

Lowering the volume of one of the pickups on a 2-pickup bass is vital to me for retaining the low-mid punch of a single pickup- often just a matter of turning both pickups up all the way then slightly rolling one of the volumes down til you just start to hear a change in the tone. Record a track of both of these (neck favored in a blend and bridge favored in a blend) in a band mix vs a clip with the pickups both maxed and I can almost guarantee that your bass will punch through better with one pickup slightly favored.

The Rickenbacker series high-pass capacitor trick on the bridge pickup can also translate usefully to a PJ, though the J being so much closer to the bridge than a Rickenbacker bridge pickup does change the effect quite a bit and so you may want to use a slightly less dramatic value than the Rickenbacker 0.0047uf capacitor. I've wired a PJ with a 0.0047uf-0.047uf cap (and standard values in between) in series with the bridge pickup to good effect, this just rolls of the lows and low-mids of the bridge pickup so there is less shared frequency in common between the two pickups to be phase-cancelled. You can even try the high-pass capacitor on the P pickup instead, which is an interesting alternative. The capacitor combined with the above trick of slightly favoring one pickup can open up some different sonic possibilities.

Series wiring between the pickups can definitely make for a punchier tone, but it will sound nothing like the parallel wiring you have now. One interesting thing to try if you do try out a series wiring option is to put a 0.047uf-0.1uf capacitor to ground where the hot output of one pickup goes into the ground of the other pickup. This will act as a low-pass filter for the first pickup, so you get only the low-miss and bass from that pickup added on top of the full signal from the other pickup.

Putting in a more mid-forward pickup set won't fundamentally change the phase-cancellation effect with both pickups turned up all the way.
 
Large Pole pieces correct. When in the middle position in mine the volume would cut off if you turned down the bridge all the way off even if the bridge was full on so definitely series. The bridge output is very hot. Mine is an 1984 model and I had it since 1996.
Thanks, that's interesting. I wonder if someone rewired something in your bass prior to you, or if it was wired different from factory.