How do I fix the mid scoop on a PJ?

[acebase62]

The original Fender PJ (if not the OG production PJ) on the Japan Fender Jazz Specials are all wired in series. at least the one with the TBX tone pot do I also think that with a EMG GZR set and one of their switches you have a solderless error free series installation if you wire it right. My Fender Jazz Special original pickups were very hot and wired in series with the TBX would cut through guitar sludge. That is why I got the EMG Geezer wired in parallel so I have something useable for other uses. My friend Pat said that the Fender TBX are not so great - their is a better TBX alternative. I am thinking to put them back with a series parallel switch.

My 1985 Fender Jazz Bass Special (passive) also had the hot pickups with larger pole pieces and a TBX tone control. I bought brand new in 1985.

The 3 way pickup toggle switch was wired for:
Neck P pickup only (VT)
Both pickups with independent volume control of each (VVT)
Bridge J pickup only (VT)

I don't remember seeing other basses set up this way.
The 3 way toggle eventually failed, and bass was rewired as VVT.
I never noticed any difference in sound after the rewire.
I later changed the pickups to Seymour Duncan SPB-1 and STK-J2.

 

[Elmstreet]

I tend to set my bridge pickup closer to the strings than my middle pickup (J, P/J, really any 2 pickup bass) as the strings have less amplitude closer to the bridge. I then set my tone (usually with the BAL centered, or both pickups on full, if V/V/T controls). Then most of the rest of my adjustment throughout the gig is to favor the bridge pickup a bit for more bite and the other pickup a bit for a "fuller" tone.

BBB

So you're always either favoring one or the other, never both on full?

 

[bdplaid]

A thing I noticed about the stock geezer set: there is a volume drop when running both pickups.

 

[Elmstreet]

Setting your sound to sound good solo is very likely to not sound good in a band context no matter what your pickups are doing scoop wise. You clearly like the sound of that scoop when solo or it wouldn't be there.
If you don't want to dissapear in a relatively busy mix the bass will need to be much harsher than you would like on it's own.
Go spend a while listening to the solo bass tracks for some of your favourite bands if you can find them and see what the tone is actually like solo rather than in the mix.

That's a good idea, listening to solo bass tracks will give me a reference point.

 

[Elmstreet]

IMO you have to just accept the real-world results with a band as opposed to what sounds good by yourself, the live mix is what actually matters

(and what that usually means with any instrument is less top and bottom and more mids; it might sound less pleasant by itself but that kind of tone is what works live)

Yeah I'm realizing this slowly but surely.

 

[JenderBazzFass]

Interesting discussion. I evolved over time not to use the J pickup at all on my PJ. I already have a J for that great sound of the two pickups full up in situations where it would work. Usually I want the opposite of that scoop when on a stage, I want the P sound.

I do like the presence of the J pickup though, because it gives me a good place to rest my thumb. For a deeper and rounder sound I'm playing with my thumb on the P pickup, if I'm playing a faster passage or I want more point on the sound I'll switch for a bit to play with my thumb on the J pickup, but the J pickup is always turned off.

 

[logdrum]

My 1985 Fender Jazz Bass Special (passive) also had the hot pickups with larger pole pieces and a TBX tone control. I bought brand new in 1985.

The 3 way pickup toggle switch was wired for:
Neck P pickup only (VT)
Both pickups with independent volume control of each (VVT)
Bridge J pickup only (VT)

I don't remember seeing other basses set up this way.
The 3 way toggle eventually failed, and bass was rewired as VVT.
I never noticed any difference in sound after the rewire.
I later changed the pickups to Seymour Duncan SPB-1 and STK-J2.

Large Pole pieces correct. When in the middle position in mine the volume would cut off if you turned down the bridge all the way off even if the bridge was full on so definitely series. The bridge output is very hot. Mine is an 1984 model and I had it since 1996.

 

[sethlow3]

I like J's, but this is why I usually pick a P for the job. There are things I change a bit EQ wise when switching to the jazz, but I only grab it if I want that sound (slap or Jaco bridge variations) or need a backup close by.

This has been discussed a lot on here as to why PJ isn't "the best of both worlds" many claim it is.

Even on a J, while the neck pickup can get some of the general character of a P when solo'd, it still has nothing like the grind and mid presence when the pick hits the string on a P. The tone with a pick on a P sounds miles better to my ears.

 

[Elmstreet]

Go to your amp and select the "low-mid" control in your EQ. Anywhere between 250Hz (where I normally set mine) and 550Hz will work. Now boost it to about 1:30 and give it a try.

The reason that "mid-scoop" sounds OK by yourself is that you are not playing at gig level and the mids are easier than the bass or treble to hear at lower levels. To get that same sound at higher levels, especially when playing with a group, you need to boost the low-mids a bit. If you boost them too much, your sound will honk at you. If that happens just slowly dial the boost down until the honk disappears. I use a passive Jazz with all my controls on the bass dimed and typically run my Eden or DNA amps flat with the exception of some small boost in the low mids.

If I have semi-parametric controls, I'll boost the low mids up to about 1:30 right around 250Hz because I like the sound I get. I'll do that with my Big, class AB, Eden WT500/800, and also my class D, Eden TN-226 amp. If I'm using my DNA-800 amp or my WTDI which is a DI stompbox with a built-in Eden WT preamp, I'll boost it at 500Hz because that's the only low mid frequency available to me with those two. If I am recording at a pro studio, I will put that slight boost of the low-mids at 500Hz because my bass records freaking great on the raw takes like that.

Before you start swapping out electronics, try adding a little boost in the low-mids. Those low-mids are what gives the bass presence and definition in the mix. The bass drum owns the lows, the guitars and keys eat up the high-mids and highs and the bass owns the low-mids...so use them! Also, just as FYI, adding distortion to your bass makes it much harder to hear you in the mix. So try it without the overdrive or distortion with just the low-mids boosted and after you get a good listen to that, go ahead and add the distortion. I think you'll see that you are much easier to hear in the mix with a clear sound and a little boost in the low-mids.

Below is a clip from a few years ago where I'm playing with the J Badders Band at Evelyn's Tavern near Clear Lake. We're playing "Somebody to Love" by the Jefferson Airplane, which has a fairly active bass part. I'm playing my '82 Jazz through an Eden WT500/800 into two 4Ω Eden EX-112 compact cabs. This amp is a dual powerblock amp, so I have one cab plugged into each power channel of my amp. I strive for a clean, clear, and articulate sound and this rig delivered it nicely for me for a couple of years before I got my DNA Endorsement.

You'll see that the bass is well defined and easily heard without the need to raise the level up so high it buries the rest of our 5-pc band. The recording was from a friend's iPhone, so it's not a great recording but you can easily hear every note I'm playing throughout this song. The only boost was 250Hz in the low mids up to 1:30 on the boost/cut dial. Everything else is set flat, the compressor is bypassed and the Enhance control (Shape) is turned to the off position. Unfortunately the vocalist, Joan, is on the other side of the stage and you might get a glimpse of her every now and then between myself and our lead guitarist. This was just the second time we'd performed it. But that is what a slight boost in the low-mids can do for you.

I appreciate the reply, solid playing by the way. I didn't realize that song had such a cool bass line, I want to go learn it now!

I'll give it a shot, I usually am cutting at 250, boosting 500 and 1.2k, but I'll try boosting all 3 and see what that does.

 

[Elmstreet]

I think this very issue is what Pat Wilkins addresses with his P/J basses. He moves the bridge pickup much closer to the neck pickup. I have one of these and my favorite setting is both pickups selected (mine has a 3 way pickup selector, not a blend or Vol/Vol setup) I like the tone both soloed at home and when I was with the band. Strong, forceful tone that didn't get lost at all. I realize this is not a possible solution for you but maybe it is some further food for thought.
This is what he does:
View attachment 5483162
Even the soloed bridge pickup tone is useful when a thinner yet fuller than usual bridge pickup tone is desired.
Also, I find GHS Pressurewounds help on this bass.

Oh wow, I don't think I've ever seen a J pickup positioned like this. This definitely interests me, I might have to try this out in the future.

 

[logdrum]

The other way to do this is use a filter control like the Lusithand, one for each pickup. But then it's an active bass. My Jazz bass with Big Splits is set up this way. No scoop and you can overwhelm the midrange if you are not careful. I actually bypass the bridge most of the time

 

[backin82]

I don't think any of your proposed solutions work to eliminate the scoop, tho they will sound different and possibly better (or possibly worse). Scoop occurs every time you run two pickups together. Whether series or parallel, or whatever pickups you use, the scoop is there. You also cannot exactly EQ it out, since those frequencies are lost.

It's harder to make the scooped sound work, but some have managed. For a classic, guitar-driven rock bass tone, I think of Duff in GNR (or both Mikes in Alice in Chains, tho they used Spectors). All of them play(ed) with a pick, that may be part of the solution. I think Duff played GK amps back in the day (not sure now), so try to understand how those color/EQ the sound. Not sure what Mikes played, but I think their tone was driven by the Spector and the EMGs...

What I personally found gave me the best "PJ" tone was soloing a bright P bass wired in parallel, and loading it with small caps. Parallel extends the P range into the high register and increases the resonant peak (volume). Caps help fine tune the resonant frequency. There's the extended upper range with a pronounced (and tunable) peak in high mids/trebles (what I wanted the J to do), but no mid scoop. Win!

I play a J and a PJ equally these days, and run through a GK amp. I typically keep both pickups on full or blended 50/50 on the PJ. I've found that I can almost dial in good tones in both gig settings and bedroom simply by setting everything like I want, and toggling the "contour" button on my MB212 combo. Turning it off results in a more flat and harsh sound in my bedroom, but it sounds great in a live setting. Turning it on results in a more scooped sound that is pleasant while practicing in my bedroom. I rarely tweak my EQ knobs unless I'm in a really extreme gig setting and need to boost the heck out of a particular range to be heard.

Here's GK's description of what the Contour button does on the MB combos.

 

[Boneless]

The only way to really counteract mid scoop is to use a crossover of sorts. Get the lows, and only the lows, from the P, and the rest, and only the rest, from the J. ("Only" can be softened to "mostly", and could actually work better, eg. using a shelf filter rather than a lowpass/high-pass filter). By finding the right crossover frequency, you should get to preserve most of the mids as well. It's not exactly straightforward. It requires that you use some active electronics, also.

The easiest way to achieve this is to use a stereo output, one for each pickup, and plug each into a separate filter, like the Broughton filters that are so popular here on TB, then mixing them back together.

You will probably get a lot more mids but it will sound different.

 

[Elmstreet]

I particularly dislike the timbre of the top strings (P part closer to bridge), as I dislike all tones of pickups too close together (bottom strings of a PJ sound more like a Jazz Bass). And the scoop itself is (IME) harder to deal with than that of a Jazz Bass with both pickups on.

I'd try to determine what frequency the scoop that bothers you is around ("scoop" might mean a different place for different ears, but usually we're meaning mid to low mid region, say 1khz down to 200hz) and try to boost that in my EQ, OR attenuate what's interfering for it not to be heard, and adjust volume (which is many times the case, every room has its own resonance, we've all experienced those 3-4 semitones that make the room shake, those also obfuscate other frequencies you might need for clarity, you need to track and kill those a little).

Do you compress? Have you tried multiband? I think it's usually a great aid to keep you sounding thick AND present overall, no matter what note you're playing. Its response can be "manipulated" with the EQ curve you introduce before (pedal, preamp, whatever). EQ+compression should be a totally capable scheme to deal with scoop.

I don't have rehearsal or gigs for a week so all I can really do is play along to songs to test things out right now. It seems to me that boosting around 750hz is making a pretty big difference, but I'll have to test it with the full band.

I use an MXR M87 compressor which I don't think is multiband, I don't fully understand what it is. Is that a feature I need to look for if I upgrade my M87?

 

[backin82]

I don't have rehearsal or gigs for a week so all I can really do is play along to songs to test things out right now. It seems to me that boosting around 750hz is making a pretty big difference, but I'll have to test it with the full band.

I use an MXR M87 compressor which I don't think is multiband, I don't fully understand what it is. Is that a feature I need to look for if I upgrade my M87?

Some other things that might help are getting the speakers pointed more directly to your ears so you can pickup the highs better, then pushing the low-mids and mids 25-50% higher than whatever you EQ in your bedroom, and just keep tweaking until it sounds how you want it in the mix. Use your ears to mix, not your eyes. Just push, pull, and turn until it sounds how you want, and let the positions of the knobs be damned.

 

[Elmstreet]

I have to battle 3 heavily driven guitars sometimes. This is what I do..

Favour the bridge pickup until you hear a drop in bass. Depending on setup, this means either blend slightly to bridge or lower neck pickup volume.
Then at the amp, raise the output volume until you hear yourself. You won't hear any bass yet, just midrange. Keep going until midrange is satisfied.
Now, raise bass controls at amp to bring bass back in.

If this seems too much, then just kill the bridge pickup and go P all the way.

Oh, and overdrive goes really well with scooped mids to bring them back in.

I bookmarked this, I like the idea of setting the mids first and then adding in the bass. I'll try this next rehearsal

 

[SLO Surfer]

How do I fix the mid scoop on a PJ

TLDR; This is normal. Simply turn down one of the pickups (neck or bridge) just barely a tad below full volume. It will get rid of the scoop and probably sound louder than both pickups turned all the way up. I never run J or P/J basses with both pickups full up.

And setting your tone and getting "your sound" dialed in should be done in the band mix/context you plan to perform in. Bedroom tone, as sweet as it is in the bedroom, rarely works alongside other instruments. A mid-heavy nasally sound in the bedroom (not very pleasant) usually sounds full, round, and punchy in a band mix (very nice!).

 

[SLO Surfer]

There's a ton of isolated bass tracks out there, none of which sound very good isolated imo, but kill in a mix. See if you can find isolated bass tracks for artists you like.

 

[Bar Band Bassman]

So you're always either favoring one or the other, never both on full?

Maybe for slap, which I don't do too often, but yes, usually a bit one way or the other. It's just my approach, I'd be surprised if many others do it that way.

BBB

 

[jpaulo]

I don't think changing the pickups is going to help much with the mid scoop.
As @ctmullins suggests, rolling off one of the volumes will reduce the effect. I usually reduce the bridge J-pickup volume a tad, but reducing either one will work.
Installing an inline cap on the bridge pickup works well, and you'll get more bass too. Rickenbacker uses a .0047 microfarad cap, but I usually install a .0068 microfarad cap with a switch.
Combining the pickups in series will eliminate the mid-scoop, but it may get a little boomy. The inline cap also works well to reduce the boom. Wiring the P-pickup coils in parallel rather than series also helps.
I usually add both series-parallel switching and a switchable inline cap to have as much versatilty as possible.

I'm not much familiar with electronics, how should this be wired?
I guess the same logic would also apply for any Jazz bass, right?
I'm not using much my Jazz as it seems to always get lost in the mix - so for me it is either the P or the PJ (minus J)...
Tks