How to setup a power conditioner to bass head?

[Stealth Fighter]

Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Chill, fellow TB'ers.

 

[beans-on-toast]

This thread reminds me of the guy a few years ago that came to check out a VCR/DVD combo that I had listed on CL. He wanted to "transfer" a bunch of old VHS tapes to DVD, I tried to tell him this unit wouldn't really do that, but he had done "research" and assured me it was what he needed. So I let him buy it.

Which reminds me, guys, how do I plug my VCR into my paint mixer? I want to make sure my videos come out in full color. Do I need to use primer first? The VCR is 2.5 amps and the paint mixer is 5, will this be ok? I don't want to underpower anything.

In the 60's they used to sell kits that converted your B&W TV to color. What they sent you was a tinted plastic film that you placed over your screen. They say that rose colored glasses can make the world look better.

 

[samson3382]

Do I still connect my cab power cord into a wall socket or into the power conditioner? The cab is 800 watts and the head is 450 so that would be over 1000 watts which is the max that the conditioner can handle.

Assuming this isn't trolling, go read everything here.
AMPS FAQ!! Info on OHMS, Allsize RIGS-OverUnderPowerCabs DIY TechTalk-Links | TalkBass.com

 

[Foz]

800 + 450 watts is a bit under two horse power so one of these rigs and you'll be good to go:

And make sure you have 120v horses before you plug em into the power conditioner!

 

[bebass]

Invalid Link Removed
It does do something that the power strips don't.
Has anyone actually monitored their power? I have. Depending on where you live, it can go up and down and spike all the time. Now put the monitor on after one of these. I am not saying it will make your amp last longer but dang, if you can actually see the lights dim and brighten... I like battery/inverter as the best approach - but can get quite expensive. A professional whole-home device at the home main service can also make a difference. In general, I think it safe to say that the incoming power is not as clean as what most think it is.

The better a transformer one has (outside - the one before coming into your house), the better the power. A larger rated transformer will help normalize the power factor. When building my last house I told the power company I needed 400 amps service for a large workshop (I didn't). They put in a much larger transformer than the average home. I monitored the power before and after. Very interesting.

I use a "power conditioner" in my rack for the control & outlets. The spike protection doesn't hurt, but there are certainly cheaper ways.

Always have something like this to check the stage power; I also check the voltage: GE 3-Wire Receptacle Tester 50542 - Voltage Testers - Amazon.com

A power distribution center (I made my own) is handy to have as it eliminates open grounds, etc. But it requires an electrician to hook up. I carry a 50 Amp 220 breaker and plug this directly in the main box (this is where the electrician is required, in order to be legal)

 

[Passinwind]

Please post a picture of your "cab power cord" and a picture of where you think you would plug it in on the power conditioner.

The one in post #38 would physically work very briefly if you changed the 1/4" plug to TS, but the results would be smelly, ear-splitting and potentially life threatening. Diogo, please don't try this at home. Your cab gets powered by your amp, not directly by the AC line. Whatever conditioning is or isn't needed happens at the amp end of the speaker cable. The Amps FAQ linked upthread has all this stuff detailed pretty well, and when you read it you'll see that the cab's power rating is completely irrelevant in this case. Link Removed

 

[Mr. Foxen]

Might be time to go acoustic.

 

[agedhorse]

Hold on a minute, a larger transformer less loaded normalizing power factor??? I don't think so. The lighter the load on a transformer the worse the power factor as phase shift of the voltage with respect to the current is precisely what reduces the primary current in the transformer under light loads. Additionally, a lightly loaded transformer will increase static losses reducing system efficiency.

What an oversized transformer will do is improve voltage stability provided there are no other limiting factors such as primary distribution losses.

I would also like to note that voltage regulating transformers (commutated tap auto-transformers) can become grossly unstable under some conditions, causing hunting and catastrophic failure. This is a known issue involving dynamic loads with high source impedances, which is why I never recommend such devices with heavy dynamic loads such as big amps. If there is a real need for this, a fully isolated double conversion PSW UPS is the safest choice.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Some recording studios go to great extents to ensure that the noise floor is a low as possible. They use three phase power to help reject noise in the phase. With further conditioning they produce clean regulated voltage to the studio equipment. I know that these systems are very expensive. Not the sort of application folks here are requiring.

This is an interesting read: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[agedhorse]

This is an interesting read: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

This is the best white paper I have seen on this subject, and should be required reading (and understood) before attempting to argue this subject.

 

[ThisBass]

Actually I was going to mention the same thing. Since you're only measuring voltage and not to any critical degree, you can even spend less than $20.

Some multimeters can capture spikes <1mSec (peak sample and hold) but these NOT less than $400.
(by the way a nice feature on costly meters to detect dynamic range of a bass guitar as well).

 

[ThisBass]

A professional whole-home device at the home main service can also make a difference. In general, I think it safe to say that the incoming power is not as clean as what most think it is.

Never had any "not as clean as think" incoming current issues with my 70's svt during past 40 years except room acoustic issues.

50542 - Voltage Testers - Amazon.com

I'm missing peak detect mode.

 

[bebass]

Hold on a minute, a larger transformer less loaded normalizing power factor??? I don't think so. The lighter the load on a transformer the worse the power factor as phase shift of the voltage with respect to the current is precisely what reduces the primary current in the transformer under light loads. Additionally, a lightly loaded transformer will increase static losses reducing system efficiency.

What an oversized transformer will do is improve voltage stability provided there are no other limiting factors such as primary distribution losses.

I would also like to note that voltage regulating transformers (commutated tap auto-transformers) can become grossly unstable under some conditions, causing hunting and catastrophic failure. This is a known issue involving dynamic loads with high source impedances, which is why I never recommend such devices with heavy dynamic loads such as big amps. If there is a real need for this, a fully isolated double conversion PSW UPS is the safest choice.

If the line output is low voltage, a transformer can be overloaded due to excess current draw, causing motors to be overheated. As power factor decreases total line current increases causing further voltage drop. A larger transformer can prevent this thus improving power factor. I do remember that adding capacitors is a way of normally improving power factor.

But hey, I don't really remember jack about this subject and certainly you gotta know more about it than me. It did solve my power problems verified by monitoring before and after. Theoretically I was not drawing more than the smaller transformer could provide.

I agree that a true sine wave UPS is best. Plan on going this route whole-house with a charged by the sun battery bank supplying a sine wave inverter. And use small ones now on all my workstations.

The whole point of my previous post is that the incoming power is not as clean as many appear to think it is; some locations are better than others.

 

[agedhorse]

If the line output is low voltage, a transformer can be overloaded due to excess current draw, causing motors to be overheated. As power factor decreases total line current increases causing further voltage drop. A larger transformer can prevent this thus improving power factor. I do remember that adding capacitors is a way of normally improving power factor.

Not if the transformer is properly sized for the load (in kVA). Your recollection of power factor as related to transformers is not correct, power factor is purely a phase shift issue, which is why adding a (properly sized) correction capacitor to the load improves power factor. Adding a larger transformer decreases power factor (in the inductive direction).

The power factor is defined as the real power divided by the reactive power, or in units W/VA. As the reactive component gets larger, the PF decreases, and the VA can never exceed the W so the best PF is 1.

The Real Power can also be defined as the reactive power x cos of the phase angle between voltage and current.

As a general note, I have found that the utility power (at least in the U.S.) is very, very good, with most accusations unable to be backed up with real data. I have logged plenty of services and have found only a few issues, mostly caused by poor maintenance either by the utility or more often, by the customer. I have also discovered plenty of incorrectly installed grounding/bonding schemes that can contribute to problems but are not at all the fault of the utility.

 

[Foz]

Clean and Power = oxymoron in most input realities = hi-power gear of all types makes for lock rotor / inrush demands that scramble eggs if the load needs and line capabilities don't match.

Well design/built power supplies and connected working gear are designed with an awareness of this reality. This is a big part of why you pay a lot more for a pro level PA amp of X watt capacity versus a consumer grade equivalent rated part and why you'll do the same when buying electric motor and pump systems.

When your load bearing unit [pump/motor/amp/etc] can't handle the line swing, then adding post line / pre load parts [transformers / cap banks] is a thin gruel way to provide a fix [well its a long reach inside the practicalities of a bass rig and difficult even for fixed loads like a timber band saw or a water pump] = when your line has insufficient ass to drive the load - you are shaged, and pretty little boxes with blinky lights aint gonna fix poopie absent load ramp control = antithetical to a musical signal.

Just saying, cause physics eats ignorance for breakfast... try to hang in there for lunch = don't be a optimist when it come to specs and $.

 

[Foz]

....As a general note, I have found that the utility power (at least in the U.S.) is very, very good, with most accusations unable to be backed up with real data. I have logged plenty of services and have found only a few issues, mostly caused by poor maintenance either by the utility or more often, by the customer. I have also discovered plenty of incorrectly installed grounding/bonding schemes that can contribute to problems but are not at all the fault of the utility.

I measure things. Its a compulsion. This doesn't make me an expert in any field - but it does give me a very highly refined ******** detector.

That said I live by the aphorism: everyone believes a measurement except the guy who took it. So I question everything I measure. That said - AH is laying down an assumption that will save you a thousand hours = assume the service is square and the site is shaged.

Just saying... its your time, blood and treasure.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

The connections are all regular AC electrical plugs.

However, you might want to do a search re: power conditioners, since they basically don't really condition power. Its just marketing.

THIS

Real "power conditioners" cost thousands of dollars and weigh a ton. So... yeah. Better to just get a AC plug tester for $5 at Grainger if you're worried about the power you're plugging into.

 

[bebass]

Not if the transformer is properly sized for the load (in kVA). Your recollection of power factor as related to transformers is not correct, power factor is purely a phase shift issue, which is why adding a (properly sized) correction capacitor to the load improves power factor. Adding a larger transformer decreases power factor (in the inductive direction).

The power factor is defined as the real power divided by the reactive power, or in units W/VA. As the reactive component gets larger, the PF decreases, and the VA can never exceed the W so the best PF is 1.

The Real Power can also be defined as the reactive power x cos of the phase angle between voltage and current.

As a general note, I have found that the utility power (at least in the U.S.) is very, very good, with most accusations unable to be backed up with real data. I have logged plenty of services and have found only a few issues, mostly caused by poor maintenance either by the utility or more often, by the customer. I have also discovered plenty of incorrectly installed grounding/bonding schemes that can contribute to problems but are not at all the fault of the utility.

In my particular case the transformer was (allegedly) properly designed. Only thing I can say for sure is it did make a huge difference.

And on other comments about power being really clean, you guys certainly live in different areas than I have. Probably rural versus city could have something to do with it, don't know. Furthermore IMO our centralized power distribution concept is immensely flawed. Many power plants have not been updated and now won't be due to recent court pollution rulings throwing out previous regulations. The distribution system itself is in many parts dated. A distributed power system would make much more sense to me. We take power for granted but it is very susceptible to interruption. Power outages in excess of two weeks in my area.
And, from the United States Department of Energy Office of Electric Transmission and Distribution, "Power outages and power quality disturbances cost the economy billions of dollars annually" and "....is aging, inefficient, and congested".

This is real interesting country ranking of quality of electricity: Invalid Link Removed

But no, the rack mounted "power conditioners" won't do anything for this.

 

[agedhorse]

Motor heating from under voltage is not a PF problem. An unloaded motor has the worst (lowest) power factor, which increases with load until it can't increase any more. At this point, there is insufficient current, and thus rotating field strength to support the load and the losses exceed the motor's ability to dissipate the heat.

 

[bassfacer22]

Yeah, I had a hilarious time reading through all your amazing posts for a few pages and now i'm here..

and so maybe I missed a post or two but soooooo which power strip/regulator/surge / whatever are we supposed to get that is portable for gigs and strong enough to handle some expensive high-end equipment like a shiny-brand new Walter Woods (blue light) amp??

That should be all the point of this forum is for I think?? Bassplayers just needing to discuss things to help the gig? I think..?

So We have a ton of (hopefully) working bass players that maybe want to protect their equipment and there is what appears to be an argument to either just buy a skimpy cheap surge protector strip for $5 or to really pay for it like $300 and you'll get protection which doesn't really protect you..

am I getting all of this correct?