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I might be kicked off TB for this, but.....

#381
Kim Jong Funk said:
The issue is more along the lines on who brought a certain idiom or style to the "masses." Nirvana was "the band that destroyed glam," and was the "turning point" in a large section of popular music. We can look at the SubPop catalog and discuss which bands were the true originators of that style (Cobain would have said the Pixies were his main influence), but it was Nirvana that brought it to the mainstream.

We can list all of the bands that the Beatles drew from, the guitarists who influenced Hendrix, etc., but all great musicians have their influences, and perhaps they happen to be the lucky ones who define an instrument or style at a certain time, but that doesn't take away from the specific voices they brought to the table.

We can argue who deserves credit for what and who did what first, but there are certain figureheads who get the recognition and usually deserve it. In Jaco's case, I wouldn't say it is undeserved. There are too many talented and highly respected musicians who have put Jaco on a pedestal of immortality to ignore. Funny enough, Bootsy was mentioned before as one of the originators of funk and a true icon (which he most certainly is), but in the new Jaco documentary he says "Bass playing didn't exist until he happened." Those are strong words from a bass icon.
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Hopefully Bootzilla was just going with a bit of hyperbole. As someone who was playing bass before Jaco blew up, there most certainly were many amazing bassists around that I won't even bother to mention. And as I said, he's entitled to his opinion just like everyone else.
 
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#382
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#383
Altitude said:
Dirty, easy example - it would be easy for an untrained ear to listen to the "Donna Lee" cover on his self-titled album and hear a guy with good chops noodling on a fretless bass. Because there might be a guy in the next dorm room doing the same thing. It takes a different ear to hear that Jaco is nailing the changes of that tune all the way through, and more or less is doing with it exactly what Bird did with it, except doing it on a bass which was pretty mind-blowing at that moment in 1976 (ish).
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That might be one of the positive things about jazz - the more you learn about the history then the more you get out of listening to a piece again as you can appreciate the quotes of other pieces, homage played to another player. But it probably makes things harder to get to grips with in the first place for some subgenres. I wish I knew much more about jazz and 'got it' more. But some jazz is listenable on a surface level, and rewards understanding it on a deep level, which is a great thing to be able to have available to listen to.
 
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#384
Ampig said:
I just gonna say it. There is a huge difference between the amount of knowledge and skill required to become a true jazz or classical musician than to play rock or other popular styles. Think I'm full of it? Hang out with those cats. You will be humbled. I'm a jazz lover but a rock player, so im not blowing my own horn. If you don't enjoy jazz, that's cool, but you are misguided when you denigrate players who have attained the skill level of Jaco. It requires intense dedication, hard work and study to get there. I don't really listen to much classical music, but I would never be presumptious enough to judge a classical bassists skill or say I don't get their bag when the truth is that I'm not qualified to even really understand what they do.
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Very true. But there are approaches to jazz that even jazz afficianadoes don't care for.

Like "Weather Report". They were hardly universally loved even though they outsold most other jazz artists by a large margin at the time. Is that a mark against them? IMO no... we like what we like.
 
#386
BuffaloBob4343 said:
Right, and I suppose the next thing you'll tell me is that the Holocaust didn't happen either, that it is a matter of opinion.

But seriously, that is NOT what you said. You responded that I was trying to say that they should be revered, NOT that it was a matter of opinion as to the magnitude of their impact. But frankly, that is an absurdity anyway. Yes I'm sure there have been several bands that have had at least as great if not greater impact on popular music. :roflmao:
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You were stating their pedigree for what reason besides proving they should be be held in some regard?

I'm a Beatles fan. Have been since they landed here. That doesn't change my ability to understand that others may not hold them in the same regard. The magnitude of their impact can mean no more to some than Adele, who people are now joking about. Will a recitation of her sales figures or wardrobe accomplishments change many minds about what they HEAR? Doubtful.

Seriously, I'm saying exactly what I'm saying. I have no control over anyone else's filters. I don't have the energy to deal with this, which was not what you seem to think it was so yeah... no Holocaust too. BTDT. fini
:).
 
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#388
hintz said:
Same here! I much prefer Stanley's writing style with his solo albums and ill take Return To Forever over Weather Report anytime! Both were/are great though, fusion before it became elevator music:)

I was told by one of my mentors the 2 had a friendly and light hearted rivalry in their heyday, as they were debatably the 2 best bassists in the jazz/fusion scene at the time(I do think its fair to compare the 2 as they were com

My same mentor broke it down nice and simple for me what he saw as the big difference between the 2: Stanley had flashier chops(slap, 3-4 finger technique for lightning speed) where Jaco had a much deeper musical understanding...i won't dispute that, and I think a comparison between them is fair as well considering genre and era!:)
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I was thinking the opposite Stanley had the more deeper musicianship, way more melodic, but its only my opinion doesnt count much...
 
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#389
Stu Rose said:
I was thinking the opposite Stanley had the more deeper musicianship, way more melodic, but its only my opinion doesnt count much...
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I actually agree with you in that 100%... That deeper musical understanding I refer to was the "outside" stuff jaco did like much of the chord substitutions he implied in his solo's *much* of the time and some bass lines too!!
 
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#391
Whousedtoplay said:
If you think that Jaco is lacking "GROOVE", we probably have a COMPLETELY different understanding about GROOVE.





About that, so called, "a very undesirable tone", don't forget that sound was recorded more than 30, even 40 years ago.
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That Bireli Lagrene recording is awesome. It's the one I whip out whenever these discussions invariably get around to the "Jaco couldn't improvise" part, which is amazing this one hasn't after 20 pages.
 
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#392
One thing nobody has mentioned, or else I missed it, is that Jaco had the celebrity X factor. Dude would probably have been famous even if he were a florist. Some people simply have an amazing combination of charisma, nonchalance, looks, and attitude that draws people to them. Jaco was like that.
 
#393
Altitude said:
One thing nobody has mentioned, or else I missed it, is that Jaco had the celebrity X factor. Dude would probably have been famous even if he were a florist. Some people simply have an amazing combination of charisma, nonchalance, looks, and attitude that draws people to them. Jaco was like that.
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Jaco was a rock star in a jazz band! I remember how my ex-wife and her friends who weren't exactly jazz-heads loved to see Jaco and Weather Report, Jaco filled seats.
 
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#394
delta7fred said:
I don't accept that as a reason for undesirable tone, I have just been listening to a recording made in 1961 and it certainly wasn't lacking in bass response.
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I remember those times (late 70's early 80's), and I clearly remember my and other musicians' (pop, rock, blues, jazz ) opinion about Jaco and his "undesirable tone", but...
Who is going to argue about those times, now with all that instant youtube, google, "kardashians", etc...
 
#395
DWBass said:
I don't think one has to understand jazz to get Jaco. If one knows and understands music, they can get what he did. I studied jazz and classical music and can play both. I prefer listening to and playing funk, r&b and dance music. I think a lot of these posts here are unnecessary. Because we don't like Jaco doesn't mean we don't get Jaco and some of these posts suggest we're dolts for actually not liking Jaco. I wish you guys would stop that. Bottom line is....Jaco was not the only revolutionary bassist of his time. Lamonte Johnson was doing things on fretless bass in the r&b genre that was unheard of before. Nate Phillips was doing things on funk bass never heard before and unmatched since. That was way more impactful to me. We all have our own musical tastes so can we all RESPECT that?!?!

I also respect Anthony Jackson immensely but I don't think he listens to as much music as we do to deem the revolution in bass stops at Jaco. Again, I respect Jaco and his accomplishments greatly but for me, he was not the be all end all.
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With all my respect to superb bass players, composers Lamonte Johnson or Nate Philips,
IMHO,
Jaco is a little bit MUSICALLY BIGGER, WIDER, and DEEPER. His melodious phrasing with his superfluous technique puts him in the slightly different class together with Stanley.
Also, Jaco died MANY YEARS (almost 30 years) AGO, and his last years were not too musically prolific.
I can ONLY guess what and HOW Jaco would play TODAY as a 64 year old Musician.
I can ONLY guess what we have missed since his death 30 years ago, but...

(P.S. IMHO, Thousands of virtual reality "youtube warriors" with all that new technology given to them in terms of video tutorials, instrument/effect marketing, "get this sound/get that effect", etc... HAVE a different opinion about Jaco poor quality youtube videos.)

Now, here is a very impressive and highly effective bass playing/soloing by an excellent bass player/composer Lamonte Johnson:
 
#396
jerry said:
Here is some Jaco influenced Marcus fretless playing. One of the first gigs I saw with Marcus was with Urszula.
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Marcus Miller on Jaco

"I was around 15 years old and a drummer friend of mine told me I had to check this record out. It was Jaco's first album. The first thing I heard was "Donna Lee". I have to admit, I didn't quite get it. It just sounded like some cat playing whatever notes he felt like. I was just learning about jazz and hadn't progressed in my own development to where I could even begin to comprehend what Jaco was doing. But this guy was obviously good so I got the record for myself and began to really listen to it. It stayed on my turntable for around two years.

I slowly began to appreciate what Jaco was doing. I was studying music pretty intensely then and it seemed like each step I took in my development allowed me to appreciate that Jaco album more. I'll never forget when, just for kicks, I decided to walk the changes to "Donna Lee" on my bass while Jaco's version was playing. This was probably a year into listening to Jaco's album and I had finally learned "Donna Lee" at school. I was still assuming that, once Jaco stated Charlie Parker's melody, he pretty much was playing any ole' thing that he wanted and that it had nothing to do with the changes. Well I'm walking the changes under Jaco's melody and continue the changes under Jaco's 'crazy solo' and of course realize that it's not crazy at all! I realize that he's playing the changes — and not just playing them. He was creating harmonies and lines that were so amazing it was sick! My appreciation of him grew so much that afternoon..."
Read here:
Marcus Miller on Jaco | Jaco Pastorius
 
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#397
Stu Rose said:
I was thinking the opposite Stanley had the more deeper musicianship, way more melodic, but its only my opinion doesnt count much...
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Q&A with Stanley Clarke on his 60th Birthday Celebration:

"...When I started playing electric bass and I made my first solo records, there were a handful of bass players that had records out, maybe two or three guys, and this was way before Jaco Pastorius, too. When Jaco came, I really enjoyed what he did. Aside from us being friends, he kind of legitimized what I did, because there was another guy that did it...."
Q&A with Stanley Clarke on his 60th Birthday Celebration: Part 2 of 3
 

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