I'm in love with Tal

[Pacman]

I took those people to be saying that she was average amoung the peer group of players that she now competes with gigs for. How would you even define "average" by reference to every possible bass player?

I definitely didn't get that. But if you want to call her average in the same breath as Will Lee, Nathan East, Darryl Jones, I'm comfortable with that. But there's a decidedly different edge to the discussion here.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Someone please tell me that they meant that she's average compared to top studio cats. In which case, why the "she got it cause she's a girl" talk? The discussion would be "she got it cause she plays her butt off", wouldn't it?

 

[Marlat]

I definitely didn't get that. But if you want to call her average in the same breath as Will Lee, Nathan East, Darryl Jones, I'm comfortable with that. But there's a decidedly different edge to the discussion here.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Someone please tell me that they meant that she's average compared to top studio cats. In which case, why the "she got it cause she's a girl" talk? The discussion would be "she got it cause she plays her butt off", wouldn't it?

Here's the main critics in the thread:

She's a working session bassist in NYC area, gets some high profile gigs, nothing revolutionary about her or her playing, just another working professional.

I haven't heard much of her besides that Crossroads DVD and a few random tracks. I thought she was good, but not great. Not saying I'm better, but I know people locally that IMO play better than her. I'll give her myspace a listen though.

+1, no offense to her (never met her) but I don't get what the big deal is. .... She can play okay, but she's not anywhere near the level of Rob Gourlay, Jim Stinnett, Victor Wooten, or any of a dozen other guys already out there playing the electric jazz scene.

I feel much the same way. Not a great player imo, solid, but uninspiring. If she were a guy I doubt she'd get half the hype she does.

but I'm still not blown away with her playing... At least, not like I am of Esperanza, Rhonda, MeShell and Divi-baby.

Tal is good, but I think she lacks a certain uniqueness that many players of her fame have. I can't quite put my finger on it - it just seems like there's something missing.

Doesn't do it for me, but I wouldn't expect it to. She's got talent, that's for sure, and she's doing her own thing, so more power to her. Now, would I ever listen to her music? Nope, but I suspect she wouldn't listen to mine either, so it balances out.

FWIW

 

[DanielleMuscato]

There's a huge difference between being an average filmmaker and an average bassist.

There is? Aside from the obvious, both are extremely competitive fields and take years of hard work before you can make a living at it, in addition to passion, natural talent, creativity, originality, etc.

I must assume that anyone saying she's average listens to her and says "I could do that, or something really similar." I'd like to hear that - because I've been a working musician for 25 years, I've played with some really great musicians, and she's really great to my ears.

I have to disagree with your logic, Jon. The best critics don't have to be and in fact are rarely masters of the field they're criticizing, or they'd be doing that, instead. E.g. Ebert, Roeper, Siskel et al are not top film-makers; they're film critics. It's an entirely different field and skill from film-making, just as criticizing music is an entirely different field and skill from making music.

Not one of those people in this thread has said "she's average, but she's way better than me", so I'll have to assume they think she's not....

Allow me I'm a session player, and she's way better than I am. I also don't play jazz.

 

[Pacman]

I have to disagree with your logic, Jon. The best critics don't have to be and in fact are rarely masters of the field they're criticizing, or they'd be doing that, instead. E.g. Ebert, Roeper, Siskel et al are not top film-makers; they're film critics. It's an entirely different field and skill from film-making, just as criticizing music is an entirely different field and skill from making music.

Disagree all you want, Dave. They're all hanging out on a bass players' board. Think Ebert and Roeper hang out on filmmakers' forums? Clearly posters in this thread are not interested in being critics.

Allow me I'm a session player, and she's way better than I am. I also don't play jazz.

Cool! You're the first I DO play jazz, and I play sessions - I think she's a badass, and deserves her gigs. Her album has a lot of great playing on it, with an earthiness that I don't hear a lot of. I'm obviously not the only one.

 

[12bass]

Being a bassist doesn't automatically disqualify you from being an informed critic - they're not mutually exclusive.

Here's something to consider: Would this discussion be happening if Wilkenfeld and her critics were all male? Probably not, because no one would assume that gender played a significant role in forming people's opinions. IMO, it's dangerous to assume that any degree of criticism of a female from a male is due to gender-bias and not simply a difference in taste.

Further, we do live in a world full of inequality - inequality of natural ability, inequality of opportunity, gender inequality, etc... and it would be foolish to think that attractive young females do not receive more attention in some circles precisely because of their attractiveness to men. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it's a reality....

 

[j-raj]

Esperanza played a few months ago at Catalina Bar & Grill, but I missed it. I found out the day after her gig...

Thanks for the Oz Noy info. Just checked his website and saw he's playing the Catalina with none other than Will Lee and Dave Weckl That's in about two weeks. I'll definately try to check that out.

P.S. Tal's gig at Bass Player Live Nov. 1st is going to be with Wayne and Keith. That should be a good show.

Back in the mid 90's I got to catch WK with Linc and Danzinger and I was totally blown away, then a couple years later WK came to the Berklee Performance Ctr for gtr week and he had Keith Carlock and Tim LeFebvre. What an amazing show with a completely set up. I encourage to check out both.

 

[soong]

ARGH!


SHES ALL MINE!

 

[MtManiac]

While I wouldn't put her up there with Jaco, Carol Kaye, James Jamerson, John Entwhistle, Marcus, Geezer Butler, Jeff Berlin, Vic Wooten, John Paul Jones, or Joe Osborne, *yet*, I think undeniably she has more talent than any "average" bass player!! I suspect that any jealousy here is not because she is female or attractive or unattractive, or whatever, but moreso because she is so freaking *young!* Guys who are closing in on 30 or maybe even past 30, who have been slugging it out since they were 16 or 17, playing pro, doing sessions, recording, trying hard to hawk their art, and achieving at best mediocre success.... these are the guys who, IMHO, are the ones who have a problem with Tal, and they justify their negative feelings by excusing her success as a result of her gender. When was the last time we saw a *bass* player, regardless of gender, of that age get the fame and fortune that Tal has received? Unless of course they were in a really popular band like Fall Out Boy. If Tal had been a guy, and was getting the attention she is getting, these same guys would just find something else to bitch about her (I mean him).

I wouldn't class her as a great yet, but I am 100% certain that she will be remembered as such, provided she keeps up what she is doing!

 

[jerry]

I really dig Tal's playing and I base that on her CD, not her youtube clips. I thought her album was very mature from a composition point of view, and she used a core band throughout and let them jell as a unit. She could have easily used a lot star guests on the album that would have sold more CDs but would have detracted from what I think she was trying to put out there, her music.
I'm far too old to be swayed by her looks or gender, and base my opinion on buying and listening a heck of a lot of music.
Besides, at my age I would probably have Chris Hanson and the Dateline NBC crew knocking at my door.

 

[Baryonyx]

But this isn't the issue. You know very well what's motivating 99% of Tal's detractors to get so upset: She dares to be female

I think thats whats motivating 99% of her fans too. However, your pseudo-analysis of her critics is insulting and once again, using the issue of her sex as a means of deflecting relevant and honest criticism of her music.

It seems that one cannot express an opinion concerning her obvious mediocrity without being labelled as a sexist "old boy". I see far more people ranting and raving about Tal than Hadrien Feraud, who is but one year older than Tal. Now that guy can really play, he is light years ahead of Tal. I'd go as far as to say that even now, he is in possession of a level of talent and skill that Tal will never reach. Despite playing with John Mclaughlin at such a young age, he has not yet reached the level of mega stardom he undoubtedly will. He does not have that "unique selling point" of being female to bolster his career.

And so you say that Tal being a woman is a big issue to her detractors? I'd say it's an even bigger deal to her fans!

And again, less of the insults please, you should treat every member here with respect, not just those you agree with.

 

[GeneralElectric]

But this isn't the issue. You know very well what's motivating 99% of Tal's detractors to get so upset: She dares to be female. It's not a coincidence that only recently have bass/guitar Cos started to even attempt to target an eager and able population of female musicians. You see, it's a good ol' boys club. Tal and others like her threaten the status quo. I like that.

Couldn't have been me. I've stated many times in this thread that many of the best players that I know personally are girls. I just don't find anything wowing or unique in her playing.

 

[Matt R.]

She can play okay, but she's not anywhere near the level of Rob Gourlay, Jim Stinnett, Victor Wooten, or any of a dozen other guys already out there playing the electric jazz scene.

Uh, yeah but she also hasn't been playing bass nearly as long as those guys either. I think there is something to be said for someone to have the ability she has at her age and for the amount of time she's been playing.

 

[D.Don]

Uh, yeah but she also hasn't been playing bass nearly as long as those guys either. I think there is something to be said for someone to have the ability she has at her age and for the amount of time she's been playing.

And I somehow get the feeling that if it was a dude 21 yo playin the bass for 4-5 years and doin her tricks, he'd probably be in the higher league too. I have a hard time thinkin berkley would care that she's a chick when they accepted her application, and I really don't think neither jeff beck nor chick corea is out for her privates when they choose to have her in the rhythm section ...

D.Don

 

[GeneralElectric]

Uh, yeah but she also hasn't been playing bass nearly as long as those guys either. I think there is something to be said for someone to have the ability she has at her age and for the amount of time she's been playing.

Which is what? She knows the right people?

 

[giovabass]

Gender-biased thinking doesn't necessarily work in only one direction.... it can cause some to overestimate and others to underestimate. Thus, I'd suggest caution regarding making too many assumptions that the gender-bias here is solely negative....

+1... It seems that for Tal worked in the right direction, and being a female has been an advantage for her career, not a negative factor.

 

[Matt R.]

Let the critics cast their first mp3. Let's hear you bold critics. C'mon, step away from the 'puter, plug your Amazing Bass in, and record some of your upper percentile riffin.' And while you're at it, contemplate the possibility that a virtuoso female bassist makes you feel small in departments that extend beyond your axe.

 

[Matt R.]

Which is what? She knows the right people?

No, genius. That she does in fact have talent and deserves the gigs she gets. Does she have a long way to go? You bet. All of us here do, I'll say.

 

[Matt R.]

And I somehow get the feeling that if it was a dude 21 yo playin the bass for 4-5 years and doin her tricks, he'd probably be in the higher league too. I have a hard time thinkin berkley would care that she's a chick when they accepted her application, and I really don't think neither jeff beck nor chick corea is out for her privates when they choose to have her in the rhythm section ...

D.Don

Right on. I agree

 

[GeneralElectric]

And I somehow get the feeling that if it was a dude 21 yo playin the bass for 4-5 years and doin her tricks, he'd probably be in the higher league too. I have a hard time thinkin berkley would care that she's a chick when they accepted her application, and I really don't think neither jeff beck nor chick corea is out for her privates when they choose to have her in the rhythm section ...

D.Don

Its been said before that she got both of those gigs through her boyfriend. And as I said also, previously in this thread, I know bass players in the same age range who play better than her and some of them haven't been playing as long as her either.

Uh, yeah but she also hasn't been playing bass nearly as long as those guys either. I think there is something to be said for someone to have the ability she has at her age and for the amount of time she's been playing.

But how many years have those guys worked to get where they are today?

No, genius. That she does in fact have talent and deserves the gigs she gets. Does she have a long way to go? You bet. All of us here do, I'll say.

Never denied she had talent, but in my opinion, she doesn't have her own voice. She sounds like easy listening jazz I hear in waiting rooms. There is nothing special about her playing whatsoever in my opinion. If there is, tell me something she's done, with a link, to show me something revolutionary.

Now you could go to me "links to your playing or GTFO" and it wouldn't bother me a bit. My playing isn't being called into question, and hers isn't quite being called into question either. No one can doubt that she plays. But being called the next bass great?

You could also tell me that she just "hasn't found her voice yet." I'd call BS on that one. You develop your own voice on the instrument the minute you pick it up. Thats why, no matter what bass or gig I play, people can listen to it and tell that its me playing.

I started off in this thread honestly wanting to know what was up. Unfortunately one of the few valid responses has been from J-Raj and the rest has been from her fan-bois. I could care less if she was a woman or not. I want to hear something fresh and original. Your fawning over her on an online forum doesn't really work to win her heart since A) she's already taken and B) I doubt she bothers with TB.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

I keep hearing everyone raving about her, but I don't see whats so special.

Am I missing something?

I hate to say this... But two words: Cute Girl.

If she were just some guy, she'd be scrapping like most of us. But good for her.