I'm in love with Tal

[Thump Jr.]

You know, I'd love to contribute to this critically important discussion, but I don't even have the hang of pentatonic scales yet, so I'm going to go plug in my bass and, y'know, practice. Bye now.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

These Tal threads are amazing. I cannot think of any other player where threads rage on about are they good enough. I think she is a fine player. She may or not be a great player, but frankly most of the players mentioned here are not great players. In most music, being a virtuoso is not needed to be great. Having a good feel, an understanding of the music, throwing in choice licks at the right time, is much more important than sheer technical skill. Given those criteria, I think Tal Wilkenfeld deserves as much respect as any other player who gets time here.

 

[MtManiac]

Never denied she had talent, but in my opinion, she doesn't have her own voice.

Ok, but she's been playing for how long exactly? 5-6 years?

 

[James Hart]

These Tal threads are amazing. I cannot think of any other player where threads rage on about are they good enough. I think she is a fine player. She may or not be a great player, but frankly most of the players mentioned here are not great players. In most music, being a virtuoso is not needed to be great. Having a good feel, an understanding of the music, throwing in choice licks at the right time, is much more important than sheer technical skill. Given those criteria, I think Tal Wilkenfeld deserves as much respect as any other player who gets time here.

well said.

 

[GeneralElectric]

Ok, but she's been playing for how long exactly? 5-6 years?

Did you read the whole post?

Never denied she had talent, but in my opinion, she doesn't have her own voice. She sounds like easy listening jazz I hear in waiting rooms. There is nothing special about her playing whatsoever in my opinion. If there is, tell me something she's done, with a link, to show me something revolutionary.

.....

You could also tell me that she just "hasn't found her voice yet." I'd call BS on that one. You develop your own voice on the instrument the minute you pick it up. Thats why, no matter what bass or gig I play, people can listen to it and tell that its me playing.

 

[D.Don]

GeneralElectric: Yeah contacts are totally the way to go in this business, without them, it doesn't matter how much you kill, be male or female ...

D.Don

 

[GeneralElectric]

GeneralElectric: Yeah contacts are totally the way to go in this business, without them, it doesn't matter how much you kill, be male or female ...

D.Don

I think thats the main reason as to why she is where she is. I think it has very little to do with her playing.

 

[OldogNewTrick]

These Tal threads are amazing. I cannot think of any other player where threads rage on about are they good enough. I think she is a fine player. She may or not be a great player, but frankly most of the players mentioned here are not great players. In most music, being a virtuoso is not needed to be great. Having a good feel, an understanding of the music, throwing in choice licks at the right time, is much more important than sheer technical skill. Given those criteria, I think Tal Wilkenfeld deserves as much respect as any other player who gets time here.

+1

what I do enjoy in all the youtube vids I've seen of her is that excitement and obvious pleasure she has playing and making music.
Like she has to pinch herself to make sure she is actually really there playing with those guys.

I enjoy her playing, but would never dream of analyzing her lines like I do Anthony Jackson's or Ray Brown's lines.


For the record, Tal's a far better bass player than I am.

Edit: I shouldn't even be comparing myself to Tal, sorry Tal, no insult intended

 

[Bass Boy]

These Tal threads are amazing. I cannot think of any other player where threads rage on about are they good enough. I think she is a fine player. She may or not be a great player, but frankly most of the players mentioned here are not great players. In most music, being a virtuoso is not needed to be great. Having a good feel, an understanding of the music, throwing in choice licks at the right time, is much more important than sheer technical skill. Given those criteria, I think Tal Wilkenfeld deserves as much respect as any other player who gets time here.

+1,000,000

Everyone is welcome to their opinion but I'm surprised at some of the comments here.

 

[Phil Smith]

Ok, but she's been playing for how long exactly? 5-6 years?

The story I heard is that she found a suitcase with a million dollars when she landed in the USA and used that cash for living expenses and to study with some of the greatest players on the scene, she also hired a great PR team and manager and the rest is history.


Just kidding folks...

 

[j-raj]

The story I heard is that she found a suitcase with a million dollars when she landed in the USA and used that cash for living expenses and to study with some of the greatest players on the scene, she also hired a great PR team and manager and the rest is history.


Just kidding folks...

 

[Dr. Cheese]

The comments about her appearance or figure are over the top, IMO. Physical appearance affects everybody. Even in sports, where winning should be the bottom line, look at the grief that Doug Flutie got for being only 5' 10". Just today, I heard a sportscaster say that for years, he did not take CC Sabathia seriously because he is heavy, but now he knows he is a good athlete. Don't even mention how race historically has affected how people were chosen for all sorts of jobs, including musical gigs. The bottom line is that Tal is young, and she has a pretty comely figure (I confess, I just noticed it the other day on a Jeff Beck clip,) we need to get over it. Even if she is no better than the average Berklee student, she is good enough for the jobs she has gotten. I sure don't hear her embarrassing herself with Jeff Beck!

 

[UncleBalsamic]

The comments about her appearance or figure are over the top, IMO. Physical appearance affects everybody. Even in sports, where winning should be the bottom line, look at the grief that Doug Flutie got for being only 5' 10". Just today, I heard a sportscaster say that for years, he did not take CC Sabathia seriously because he is heavy, but now he knows he is a good athlete. Don't even mention how race historically has affected how people were chosen for all sorts of jobs, including musical gigs. The bottom line is that Tal is young, and she has a pretty comely figure (I confess, I just noticed it the other day on a Jeff Beck clip,) we need to get over it. Even if she is no better than the average Berklee student, she is good enough for the jobs she has gotten. I sure don't hear her embarrassing herself with Jeff Beck!

+1

 

[JazznFunk]

I never knew who Wayne was until I heard him on Tal's CD. I'm glad I know who he is now though. I saw him at the Baked Potato (with Tal) and I really loved his playing and humility. Seems like a real cool guy and a great guitar player.

I like Esperanza, but there is something about her style that leaves me a bit uninspired. I'd still love to check her out live sometime though.

I first heard Wayne Krantz about 9 years ago on Victor Bailey's 'Lowblow' CD. It's out of print now, but you can find it on iTunes, if I recall correctly. Great playing... some of the disc is a little hard to swallow (cheesy in spots), but there is some KILLER playing on the heady fusion stuff. Check it out. Wayne's a great player.

 

[DanielleMuscato]

I think thats whats motivating 99% of her fans too. However, your pseudo-analysis of her critics is insulting and once again, using the issue of her sex as a means of deflecting relevant and honest criticism of her music.

It seems that one cannot express an opinion concerning her obvious mediocrity without being labelled as a sexist "old boy". I see far more people ranting and raving about Tal than Hadrien Feraud, who is but one year older than Tal. Now that guy can really play, he is light years ahead of Tal. I'd go as far as to say that even now, he is in possession of a level of talent and skill that Tal will never reach. Despite playing with John Mclaughlin at such a young age, he has not yet reached the level of mega stardom he undoubtedly will. He does not have that "unique selling point" of being female to bolster his career.

And so you say that Tal being a woman is a big issue to her detractors? I'd say it's an even bigger deal to her fans!

And again, less of the insults please, you should treat every member here with respect, not just those you agree with.

Again, well said, Chris. Can she hold her own with some of the greats, like Jeff Beck? That says enough about her playing right there—yes. Is she the future of bass? John McLaughlin called Hadrien Feraud the next Jaco; I don't think anybody is saying things like that about Tal (well, nobody I know of with any legitimate credibility like John McLaughlin, anyway). It depends on who you ask, and her sex may play a role there, for better or for worse. It should be pointed out that just because Jeff Beck tours with her, this doesn't mean he considers her to be the future of bass, or the next Jaco—I'm sure she charges less than Victor Wooten, and there are all sorts of other politics involved regarding who gets the call for those types of gigs.

The fact that she's a woman doesn't seem to be hurting her career; it seems to be helping it, and that's great. More power to her, yeah? However, something strikes me as "off" when someone says in the same breath that 1) she deserves the gigs she has because she's an awesome player and that 2) her playing may not be at the level of some of the other pro jazz session players to choose from out there, but she's young and a woman, so it's okay. Well... which is it? If her playing is top-notch, the fact that she's young or a woman shouldn't even need to be brought up. If her playing isn't ace but she's riding on the novelty of her sex and youth, then don't defend her playing as the best for the job.

Now, it's entirely possible that she's both young, a woman, and an ace player. However, my ears tell me otherwise, and some of the comments here make me think I'm on the right track - particularly the "doesn't have her own voice yet," "elevator music," "acts like she doesn't belong" comments. She's excellent by average TBer standards and mediocre/average by pro electric jazz session player standards (Victor Wooten, Matt Garrison, Jim Stinnett, Rob Gourlay, Jaco, Hadrien Feraud, et al... I'm not really a jazz guy so I don't know many others). The point is, she is not the best bassist on the planet; she's a very good bassist who has been playing for only a few years, and happens to be a woman, which is still pretty novel among electric jazz bass players and fans of the genre.

Bottom line, who cares? She's making a living doing what she loves, and as a fellow bass brother (sister?), I'm behind her 100%.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

The comments about her appearance or figure are over the top, IMO. Physical appearance affects everybody. Even in sports, where winning should be the bottom line, look at the grief that Doug Flutie got for being only 5' 10". Just today, I heard a sportscaster say that for years, he did not take CC Sabathia seriously because he is heavy, but now he knows he is a good athlete. Don't even mention how race historically has affected how people were chosen for all sorts of jobs, including musical gigs. The bottom line is that Tal is young, and she has a pretty comely figure (I confess, I just noticed it the other day on a Jeff Beck clip,) we need to get over it. Even if she is no better than the average Berklee student, she is good enough for the jobs she has gotten. I sure don't hear her embarrassing herself with Jeff Beck!

Look, Tal is clearly competent - but are you honestly saying that her looks play no role in her getting this attention? Frankly, I don't care that she got the gigs she has - she seems to do the job and, like you said, doesn't embarrass herself - but I have to say that I could do what she does - as could half of the folks on this list - but I can't look as good doing it - and a part of the music world IS appearance. And as far as my man Jeff Beck goes, he clearly is a bit of a hound (how many years keeping Jennifer Battan on stage with him?) so I think I'd look to another artist to validate young Tal...

 

[Phil Smith]

The comments about her appearance or figure are over the top, IMO. Physical appearance affects everybody. Even in sports, where winning should be the bottom line, look at the grief that Doug Flutie got for being only 5' 10". Just today, I heard a sportscaster say that for years, he did not take CC Sabathia seriously because he is heavy, but now he knows he is a good athlete. Don't even mention how race historically has affected how people were chosen for all sorts of jobs, including musical gigs.

The playing field is the playing field but all of her attributes are to her advantage.

The bottom line is that Tal is young, and she has a pretty comely figure (I confess, I just noticed it the other day on a Jeff Beck clip,) we need to get over it. Even if she is no better than the average Berklee student, she is good enough for the jobs she has gotten. I sure don't hear her embarrassing herself with Jeff Beck!

Well you can act like she looks like a pot bellied old man if you want to.

 

[bassrique]

I have to say that I'm a big Wayne Krantz and Keith Carlock fan, so I did get her CD... I have nearly everything that I can find with WK, but I'm still not blown away with her playing... At least, not like I am of Esperanza, Rhonda, MeShell and Divi-baby.

MC Divinity has great spirit, but I wouldn't put her up there with the others you listed or TW.

 

[Bass Boy]

I'm confused why people feel she has to be like Jaco, or at the technical level of Wooten to be a great, pro bassist or "deserve" the gigs she gets. There is no sliding scale or contest in which every bass player is measured and is then awarded the gig.

Why are guys taking credit away from her? She's a great bassist, grooves, has chops, is melodic, and from what I'm told is a good hang. That's enough for me.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Again, well said, Chris. Can she hold her own with some of the greats, like Jeff Beck? That says enough about her playing right there—yes. Is she the future of bass? John McLaughlin called Hadrien Feraud the next Jaco; I don't think anybody is saying things like that about Tal (well, nobody I know of with any legitimate credibility like John McLaughlin, anyway). It depends on who you ask, and her sex may play a role there, for better or for worse. It should be pointed out that just because Jeff Beck tours with her, this doesn't mean he considers her to be the future of bass, or the next Jaco—I'm sure she charges less than Victor Wooten, and there are all sorts of other politics involved regarding who gets the call for those types of gigs.

The fact that she's a woman doesn't seem to be hurting her career; it seems to be helping it, and that's great. More power to her, yeah? However, something strikes me as "off" when someone says in the same breath that 1) she deserves the gigs she has because she's an awesome player and that 2) her playing may not be at the level of some of the other pro jazz session players to choose from out there, but she's young and a woman, so it's okay. Well... which is it? If her playing is top-notch, the fact that she's young or a woman shouldn't even need to be brought up. If her playing isn't ace but she's riding on the novelty of her sex and youth, then don't defend her playing as the best for the job.

Now, it's entirely possible that she's both young, a woman, and an ace player. However, my ears tell me otherwise, and some of the comments here make me think I'm on the right track - particularly the "doesn't have her own voice yet," "elevator music," "acts like she doesn't belong" comments. She's excellent by average TBer standards and mediocre/average by pro electric jazz session player standards (Victor Wooten, Matt Garrison, Jim Stinnett, Rob Gourlay, Jaco, Hadrien Feraud, et al... I'm not really a jazz guy so I don't know many others). The point is, she is not the best bassist on the planet; she's a very good bassist who has been playing for only a few years, and happens to be a woman, which is still pretty novel among electric jazz bass players and fans of the genre.

Bottom line, who cares? She's making a living doing what she loves, and as a fellow bass brother (sister?), I'm behind her 100%.

Dave, you are a trained pro, and I am an untrained amateur. I trust your judgement about her skill level. That said, I do think there is some jealousy and sour grapes in the strength of the critique against Tal. Like I said, she is not the only good, but not great player working high profile gigs or who has a solo CD out. There are some young men who have gotten breaks too, and I don't think they atract the same ire.
As you said, who cares. I'll keep slapping in E in my den and you will go back to the studio and get another band soon.