I'm Sick of Subs

[shastaband]

Even though I'm a bass player, and love the low end, I have become thoroughly sick of subwoofers (especially in small venues). Hardly anyone uses them tastefully to enhance the low end response of the FOH PA. The subs are usually cranked to the point where the low end is just a big mess of woofy sound with no definition.

This even happened at a recent Tower of Power concert I attended. Rocco Prestia is one of my favorite bassists. I've seen him a number of times over the years and love his rapid and articulate bass parts. Yet at the most recent concert the subs were cranked so much the the bass drum and bass were just a mass of low end noise with absolutely no definition of the individual notes. (The drums were also WAY too loud, making the singer scream to try and be heard over the rest of the band. He couldn't sing with any subtlety or nuance at all.)

This tendency is especially pronounced in small club venues, where a decent bass amp could easily carry the room, but the subs are often so loud that everything else, especially the vocals, are buried. Why, oh why, do people turn up the subs so much? Is it due to deaf sound men? The popularity of rap/hiphop music with exaggerated bass lines? The prevalence of DJs pumping out overly bass-heavy recordings everywhere?

It drives me nuts that something that is designed to enhance the sound ends up ruining it for me.

 

[Jay Corwin]

I agree. There are some small rooms that don't need them at all.

 

[RoadRanger]

Lost battle I'm afraid. Whoever is hiring the sound is generally hiring the big sub sound - along with the bleeding ears SPL's. I've tried to go against the trend at the smaller club level but pretty much just work with the retired pros these days - hobby bands mix from the stage and/or hire the big subs stoopid loud "rock star" sound .

 

[20db pad]

My theory is that people are used to hearing huge, booming low end from their home theater systems in their living rooms and immediately connect that with "entertainment" somehow. It just wasn't as big of a thing 25 years ago when a person could watch a movie at home without the walls and windows shaking.

 

[RoadRanger]

Oh, and you'll get a chuckle out of this - I'm in the process of replacing my "small club" subs (a pair of 34 lb GK 212MBE's powered at 600w each) with a pair of the newer super 15LF type drivers, to be powered at 400w each - 25 lbs per cab, flat down to the "B" fundamental . I do still have two sets of bigger subs for larger jobs .

 

[dheafey]

I think much of the problem is a lack of understanding/knowledge. Bass guitar and kick drum share a lot of the same low end frequency spectrum and if they're not "separated" appropriately, you get a tubby, flabby mess. There are several techniques used to create their own sonic space and there's a bunch of info on the subject, but the clearest/simplest example I could find was here:

Making your kick drum and bass line sit nicely together in the mix

Another technique is using a compressor on the bass with a sidechain tied to the kick.

 

[dheafey]

Another possible cause is the Power Alley. Subs on each side of the stage with mains on sticks is considered by some to be the exact WRONG way to do it even though we see it all the time. The resulting "bass suck" could cause someone to crank the subs creating a mess of the low end.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[RoadRanger]

Another possible cause is the Power Alley. Subs on each side of the stage with mains on sticks is considered by some to be the exact WRONG way to do it even though we see it all the time. The resulting "bass suck" could cause someone to crank the subs creating a mess of the low end.

Only if they're too lazy to walk around and listen . I do try to center cluster the subs when possible or put them both on one side but that's not always possible or the best compromise.

 

[dheafey]

Only if they're too lazy to walk around and listen . I do try to center cluster the subs when possible or put them both on one side but that's not always possible or the best compromise.

LOL. Yep. Room, stage, dance floor, tables, etc... all can be limiting factors in setup. Gotta go with watcha got.

 

[pnchad]

My theory is that people are used to hearing huge, booming low end from their home theater systems in their living rooms and immediately connect that with "entertainment" somehow. It just wasn't as big of a thing 25 years ago when a person could watch a movie at home without the walls and windows shaking.

Exactly - full disclosure I'm a geezer - but I lent my house to a friend (guitard) & he installed his 'surround sound' high end movie shaker system and it actually made me irritable - couldn't stay in the room unless he turned off the sub.

This is one of those, just because you can doesn't mean you should. All music isn't House.

Today's tech allows frequencies previously unavailable but it's artificial lows, unnatural.

 

[20db pad]

Exactly - full disclosure I'm a geezer - but I lent my house to a friend (guitard) & he installed his 'surround sound' high end movie shaker system and it actually made me irritable - couldn't stay in the room unless he turned off the sub.

This is one of those, just because you can doesn't mean you should. All music isn't House.

Today's tech allows frequencies previously unavailable but it's artificial lows, unnatural.

Artificial lows being unnatural is a great point - yes, I've been right in the way of a Category 5 hurricane, been around earthquakes, seen demolitions of large buildings, and have seen an avalanche. None of these events carried along with them the prolonged extremes of low end sound that are commonly heard in the dance club district of any major city, movie theater, or from the vehicle of a high performance car stereo buff.

 

[sketch]

But how else will snakes be able to appreciate the music?

 

[-Asdfgh-]

My theory is that people are used to hearing huge, booming low end from their home theater systems in their living rooms

A lot of home hi-fi systems don't do much below 100Hz though...

Last time I mixed sound in a place with subs I couldn't work out how to get the subs to function (it's nice to have everything in the venue working, even if you don't need it all, just in case you do) but they weren't required.

The other issue with subs is placement: one on each side of the stage risks nodes and anti-nodes being very audible in the auditorium, so some people will get all the mud, and some will be saying "Bass? What bass?"

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I think much of the problem is a lack of understanding/knowledge. Bass guitar and kick drum share a lot of the same low end frequency spectrum and if they're not "separated" appropriately, you get a tubby, flabby mess.

Sometimes people go to the other extreme and the kick makes a tack-tack noise and the snare drum sounds like an explosion out of Die Hard.

 

[Feral Feline]

OP I hear you.

Herbie Hancock's touring sound engineer ruined the entire show here last year. It was so bad I actually complained to the venue staff after just a few songs, but they couldn't do anything about it because Hancock's crackpot engineer was calling the shots.

I've attended many concerts at the same venue and it never sounded so bad. In fact, I was there the last two nights for Patti Austin, Janis Siegel and Elisa Chan and the local engineer did a great job (as he always does).

 

[el murdoque]

in my area, most FOH guys use a HPF around 80-100Hz for everything except the bassdrum.
At first i hated the idea. But the sound IS a lot better.

 

[Jeffrey Bryan]

OP I hear you.

Herbie Hancock's touring sound engineer ruined the entire show here last year. It was so bad I actually complained to the venue staff after just a few songs, but they couldn't do anything about it because Hancock's crackpot engineer was calling the shots.

I've attended many concerts at the same venue and it never sounded so bad. In fact, I was there the last two nights for Patti Austin, Janis Siegel and Elisa Chan and the local engineer did a great job (as he always does).

It's hysterical how good local sound engineers can be. I know some engineers who have gotten big gigs because they made the opening act sound way better than the main act.

 

[Fxpmusic]

I think, overall, many sound guys just tent to push systems way too hot. When you see a large crowd keeping distance from the stage, it is time to bring it down a notch.

 

[Arjank]

Yet at the most recent concert the subs were cranked so much the the bass drum and bass were just a mass of low end noise with absolutely no definition of the individual notes. (The drums were also WAY too loud, making the singer scream to try and be heard over the rest of the band. He couldn't sing with any subtlety or nuance at all.)

A typical example of a FOH guy who doesn't know sh.. about how to get a nice balanced sound. I don't want to generalize but IME more then 50% of the FOH guys does this kind of thing...

 

[DWBass]

Run by folks who don't have a clue how to mix sound!