Industrial Strength Industries?

[Bass Unique]

Yes, it does. I don't know if you can sight read, but if you can you know that you can play any song without having ever heard it. An acoustical engineer can read an SPL chart and know what any cab will sound like without ever having heard it.

-10 oh dear - the SPL chart is only part of the story, this give no indication on phase, dispersion and there are a lot of nuances which the ear picks up which sound good that measure badly. If it were all down to engineers and charts then everything would sound very clinical.

Yes it's important as are the other charts but without listening you end up with a situation like many of the 80's hi fi's - very good distortion and specs etc but really clinical and thin sounding. The proper hi fi which sounds good has a lot more listening that I think you give credit for!

 

[Bass Unique]

I don't want 30 to 40hz when I play bass. I'm mostly concerned about 100-200hz and 500-1k. I guess maybe there are folks who do want it, but not at the expense of the other frequencies.

That is what subs are for - to add depth and presence to a sound - not to replace the critical midbass region. It would be an addition not a replacement!

 

[Korladis]

Eh, the kick drum can have those frequencies.

 

[Mr. Foxen]

-10 oh dear - the SPL chart is only part of the story, this give no indication on dispersion

The bit where you have a chart and a number of degrees off axis tells you about that.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Eh, the kick drum can have those frequencies.

Not so much as you might think. I have a few hundred RTAs taken in the FOH of a major venue of national and international acts, playing though no-holds barred million dollar systems. They show little content below 40Hz. As for the bass, the better FOH engineers roll off the bass channel of the console at 60 to 80Hz; when they don't the excess content below that ruins the mix.
It's actually DJs who can have need for major output below 40Hz., as some forms of recorded music do have major LF content. Live music, not really.

 

[JimmyM]

-10 oh dear - the SPL chart is only part of the story, this give no indication on phase, dispersion and there are a lot of nuances which the ear picks up which sound good that measure badly. If it were all down to engineers and charts then everything would sound very clinical.

Yes it's important as are the other charts but without listening you end up with a situation like many of the 80's hi fi's - very good distortion and specs etc but really clinical and thin sounding. The proper hi fi which sounds good has a lot more listening that I think you give credit for!

And engineers do a lot more listening than you give them credit for, too. It's just silly to think that gear is produced simply by doing charts and never listening. It's not an either/or situation ever. Of course the final test is listening, but behavior can be predicted with a fine tooth comb, so why not take advantage of that, and then use the listening to fine tune it? Just remember that the best sounding gear on the market was designed by engineers, not listeners.

 

[Korladis]

Not so much as you might think. I have a few hundred RTAs taken in the FOH of a major venue of national and international acts, playing though no-holds barred million dollar systems. They show little content below 40Hz. As for the bass, the better FOH engineers roll off the bass channel of the console at 60 to 80Hz; when they don't the excess content below that ruins the mix.
It's actually DJs who can have need for major output below 40Hz., as some forms of recorded music do have major LF content. Live music, not really.

Interesting. I'd thought the kick drum was a bit lower than it seems it actually is. In any case, the 30-40hz frequencies aren't especially important to my sound anyway. At least not live, especially not in the venues I'm usually playing (not the best places as far as acoustics go).

 

[Bass Unique]

And engineers do a lot more listening than you give them credit for, too. It's just silly to think that gear is produced simply by doing charts and never listening. It's not an either/or situation ever. Of course the final test is listening, but behavior can be predicted with a fine tooth comb, so why not take advantage of that, and then use the listening to fine tune it? Just remember that the best sounding gear on the market was designed by engineers, not listeners.

Engineers who listen - good - these do produce the best hi fi.

"Engineers" believing charts only - bad - I have been in this business for many years and believe me, there are a lot who don't use their ears properly.

Designing is an iterative process - theoretical design and modelling comes first to an agreed spec, prototyping, measuring, listening, rebuilding, measuring, listening and then tweaking, usually by ear for good sound (or by chart for good brochures...).

Then, if it is a good cottage industry, the good system will not be compromised when it becomes commercial.

However, many big organisations spend millions on R&D departments doing testing only to let the marketing department change it all at the last minute for aesthetics, no time to redesign before an agreed launch date, charts often dont match the commercial cabs. And when it does not sound right, it considered the engineers fault.

;-)

 

[Bass Unique]

I have a few hundred RTAs taken in the FOH of a major venue of national and international acts, playing though no-holds barred million dollar systems. They show little content below 40Hz. As for the bass, the better FOH engineers roll off the bass channel of the console at 60 to 80Hz; when they don't the excess content below that ruins the mix.
It's actually DJs who can have need for major output below 40Hz., as some forms of recorded music do have major LF content. Live music, not really.

Agreed that most pro systems are cut below 39 Hz. This is considered full bandwidth for live stuff. However, for a proper good sound live ( matching the depth you may get on a DI) you dont want to cut the fundamentals of a 5 string completely. If you are relying on your backline to produce this in small to medium venues, it is an advantage to have content down to 31 Hz (providing it does not compromise the midbass region).

 

[KJung]

Checked these out at the show. GK heads used. Small, well made, sounded pretty good. Reminded me a bit of the old EA VL three way cabs.... Deep and smooth. No way to evaluate Max volume at show though.

 

[JimmyM]

Agreed that most pro systems are cut below 39 Hz. This is considered full bandwidth for live stuff. However, for a proper good sound live ( matching the depth you may get on a DI) you dont want to cut the fundamentals of a 5 string completely. If you are relying on your backline to produce this in small to medium venues, it is an advantage to have content down to 31 Hz (providing it does not compromise the midbass region).

31 hz fundamental is heard way more from the second harmonic than the fundamental. Fortunately, it's never an issue for me since the only way I play 5's these days is when requested, and it happened for the first time in 5 years last November

 

[billfitzmaurice]

However, for a proper good sound live you dont want to cut the fundamentals of a 5 string completely.

The response of the backline speakers already does that. If the PA is not highpassed then the output of the PA bears no resemblance to what's being produced on stage. Failing to account for the difference between the response of backline cabs and PA subs is the number one reason for bad PA sound, be it in a 50 seat bar or a 20,000 seat venue. Invariably the best FOH guys I've worked with were also either recording engineers or bass players or both, who mixed the bass right because they knew how it's supposed to sound. The worst were guys who got their job only because they were a friend of the band. You might not think that occurs in the ranks of pro-touring, but IME it does far more often than one would expect.

 

[JimmyM]

That's for sure. Apparently the only qualification one needs to be a pro soundman is to own a PA system capable of handling the gig

 

[billfitzmaurice]

That's for sure. Apparently the only qualification one needs to be a pro soundman is to own a PA system capable of handling the gig

The worst sound I've ever heard was Ringo and his All Stars, with Greg Lake on bass. To say the least the FOH crew was manned by No Stars.

 

[Bass Unique]

It is interesting that phrases like "how it supposed to sound" are used in pro-touring setups. I would have assumed that the systems these days are far more automated in terms of eq and feedback control (I don't know this for a fact as stadium sized equipment is not my experience). If this is still governed by an engineers ears, how do they know what they hear is correct?

Everyone's ears are slightly different and we all have a preference for more or less bass etc. There is surely an objective method of a correct setup for large venues?

Although I am keen to reproduce the fundamental of a 5 string (as well as good harmonic content), my preference is for a very smooth even bass response, not just "output". It may surprise you all to know that I tend to err on a Jaco tight harmonic rich sound using the bridge pickup more than the P bass sound. In order to sound clean, you do need a smooth non boomy bass plus lots of mids but this does not mean it cant be extended bass - it just has to be done well.

Remember, "boom" depends on venue size (ie room modes) but some speakers are more prone to setting up a boomy sound than others. Start with a flat extended response and site the speaker carefully (away from corners if the room tends to boom) then play with eq if required. If you dont have a true low end in your speaker and try and compensate with the 50 to 80 Hz region being boosted (which is also most likely close to resonance of your ported speaker), it can be a recipe for disaster, particularly in smaller venues. Adding the weight of the 30 to 40 Hz low end and backing off the 50 to 80 Hz region slightly and then boosting the 120 to 250 Hz region should add depth AND clarity.

 

[testing1two]

Well I got a chance to listen to the ISI cab briefly at NAMM. They had a pair of speakers sitting side by side being powered by a GK head and a 5 string jazz bass of some sort. Keep in mind this is NAMM so things weren't very loud even when I asked them to turn it up for a moment.

First impression: there is a massive amount of low frequency energy coming out of these little cabs. They are tuned lower than just about any bass cab I've encountered (I believe I overheard the developer saying the cabs go down to 27Hz). The low end was actually too overpowering IMO, hiding what seemed to be a very smooth and articulate coaxial midrange & compression driver. I have a feeling that if you rolled off some of that low end this would be a very pleasant sounding cab.

I can't quite figure out who really needs these cabinets though. You would need multiple cabs and several thousand watts to achieve anything close to concert SPL levels, which isn't exactly efficient. But if you were running through a PA and using the ISI cabs as stage monitors, they would wreak havoc on your PA subs in terms of phase and balance issues (stadium gigs notwithstanding). It seems like a product designed to prove a point more than to meet a demand. The result is something esoteric for the extended range bassist who wants a smaller, quieter, kinder, gentler version of an Accugroove stack. As always, YMMV, IMO, YOYO, HIYA.

 

[Mr. Foxen]

I think the bedroom market is actually bigger than the gigging backline market. And also has more disposeable money in it, and inclination to try things other than SVT stacks.

 

[KJung]

Well I got a chance to listen to the ISI cab briefly at NAMM. They had a pair of speakers sitting side by side being powered by a GK head and a 5 string jazz bass of some sort. Keep in mind this is NAMM so things weren't very loud even when I asked them to turn it up for a moment.

First impression: there is a massive amount of low frequency energy coming out of these little cabs. They are tuned lower than just about any bass cab I've encountered (I believe I overheard the developer saying the cabs go down to 27Hz). The low end was actually too overpowering IMO, hiding what seemed to be a very smooth and articulate coaxial midrange & compression driver. I have a feeling that if you rolled off some of that low end this would be a very pleasant sounding cab.

I can't quite figure out who really needs these cabinets though. You would need multiple cabs and several thousand watts to achieve anything close to concert SPL levels, which isn't exactly efficient. But if you were running through a PA and using the ISI cabs as stage monitors, they would wreak havoc on your PA subs in terms of phase and balance issues (stadium gigs notwithstanding). It seems like a product designed to prove a point more than to meet a demand. The result is something esoteric for the extended range bassist who wants a smaller, quieter, kinder, gentler version of an Accugroove stack. As always, YMMV, IMO, YOYO, HIYA.

My impressions at NAMM are similar to yours. I would point out though that there are a lot of guys playing relatively quiet gigs who value a full range tone. This cab again reminds me of the early EA VL cabs, and especially the Acme B series II cabs (actually more the Acme's than the VL's, due to the extreme low end extension and the resulting 'polite' feeling of the upper mids and treble).

Definitely a niche product, as you suggest, but there might be a place for it. Watts are cheap now, so the low SPL is not much of an issue at this point for those types of players who want a wide tonal footprint and play at moderate volumes.

I LOVE my Acme Fullrange for those types of gigs.

IMO there.

 

[NWB]

Oh, forget all these engineers!

Anyone can make a great-sounding cab by gluing some wood together into a box and installing some drivers. Just by using their ears.

And, anyone can make an awesome-sounding amp by soldering together a bunch of resistors, capacitors, pots, transformers, etc. and stuffing them into a casing. Ohm's Law? Old Man Ohm never rocked out a stadium and wouldn't know the first thing about bass amps. Trust your gut man, trust your gut!

 

[Bass Unique]

Oh, forget all these engineers!

Anyone can make a great-sounding cab by gluing some wood together into a box and installing some drivers. Just by using their ears.

And, anyone can make an awesome-sounding amp by soldering together a bunch of resistors, capacitors, pots, transformers, etc. and stuffing them into a casing. Ohm's Law? Old Man Ohm never rocked out a stadium and wouldn't know the first thing about bass amps. Trust your gut man, trust your gut!

Well... not anyone but I get your drift