Intonation problems with GHS Precision Flats

[FunkHead]

Honestly, I don't think this could have mattered. Also, the end of the string where you trim it is essentially "dead". It's not as if I'm cutting the string where the winding is nice and thick, I cut it where it's thin and there is no real winding around it.

Maybe some pictures would help to understand what is going on. Headstock, bridge & pickup areas…I have never cut a string where there was no winding.

 

[Yahboy]

I bought a medium scale set for my Guild Starfire I (as suggested by the GHS rep). I mounted them. The G and D strings sound fine, although they are *very* bright. (I assume these strings need lots and lots of breaking in). The A and E strings sound all over the place. Very nasty overtones, unclear fundamental, also hard to tune as the tuner has lots of trouble stabilising (as expected by the sound I'm hearing). I stretched the strings. I checked for string torsion (there didn't appear to be any). Setup was fine, no fret buzzing or whatever. The E string also sounded a bit choked (it's a .095, I know Precision Flats are old school and with a very thumpy E, but the lower tension on the E as opposed to a regular .105 should mitigate the issue?). Am I doing something wrong? It's not as if I'm a novice at bass.

This guy do help @Jon Moody , not that Michael.

 

[Egg250]

I'm adamant there is no twisting/wrenching/whatever you may call it. I've double-checked, I've slackened the strings, kept an eye on both the tuning post and the tailpiece so that no twists would arise or no slippages either, etc. and I also set the witness points (I'd never done this before, I had never had the need to; I've been using flats for quite a while as well) and the result is this (files below). I recorded the GHS flats, I removed the strings and I mounted the LaBella flats I was mounting earlier. The LaBella flats are relatively new, for flats (about six months, keep in mind I haven't used this bass much). At the end of the GHS file you can also hear a combination of GHS E and A strings and LaBella D and G strings so you can hear the clear difference in tone.

How did you set the intonation?

 

[Boneless]

How did you set the intonation?

Maybe intonation isn't the correct word. Simply it sounds like crap. Unclear fundamental, nasty overtones. I uploaded two samples a while earlier, hear for yourself.

 

[Turnaround]

Stretching the string isn't about stretching the string itself and won't do anything with the witness points.

Stretching the string is done to get rid of slack around the tuning posts. If you don't stretch the strings you will usually have a bit of tuning instability until the strings settle by themselves. I always stretch the strings to avoid this but I do it gently.

I do set the witness points but only after I've adjusted the intonation. The reason for this is exactly as described in the video: I don't want to risk any kinks in the strings in front of the saddles. Of course, after I've set the witness points the intonation will shift slightly so I will have to make a small final adjustment. If I don't set the witness points this shift will happen gradually with use and WILL affect intonation. I don't push very hard on the strings though, just enough to make them sit propely over the saddles.

If you set the intonation before setting the witness points, the intonation will be off. Start by putting the saddles back a bit toward the butt end, set the witness points, then check the intonation. It will probably be flat, move the saddle towards the headstock a tad and recheck the intonation. That way you will never be introducing a kink into the speaking length of the string.

 

[TomB]

It was briefly mentioned, but have you tried lowering your pickup(s) significantly? Do those Guild pickups have powerful magnets? The variation between string brands could be specific to the metallurgy if this turns out to be an issue …just a thought - trying it is free .

 

[dangevans]

My 2 cents:
I have these strings on all 5 of my basses, and they all work fine. You probably have a bad batch- get a hold of the company and they should send you a replacement set.
Hope things work out.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

Maybe intonation isn't the correct word. Simply it sounds like crap. Unclear fundamental, nasty overtones. I uploaded two samples a while earlier, hear for yourself.

What I heard in those clips MIGHT be caused by poor intonation. I ask again: How much did you have to move the saddles compared to the LaBellas and in which direction? Was the LaBella set heavier gauge?

Sometimes the tuner can react to overtones instead of the fundamental and give misleading readings when you're adjusting the intonation. When this happens you may end up with very poor intonation and a wobbly "double tone", as well as being out of tune in higher frets, even though the tuner says the intonation is ok. Trying different pickups and tone control settings can sometimes help getting a more stable reading on the tuner.

Also, the clips are comparing a (presumably) broken in set of LaBellas to a brand new set of GHS flats. Whatever people say I've always found that GHS flats need a LONG break-in period before they sound great. But even a new set shouldn't have that wobbly "out of tune" thing, which I suspect MIGHT be caused by incorrect saddle positions.

Or maybe you just got a bad set...???

FWIW I tend to like LaBellas better than GHS flats on most basses. LaBellas sound "fatter" to me. GHS flats are boomier and slightly hollow sounding by comparison IMO. I like (and use) both though but I've never tried these lighter gauges GHS.

 

[Egg250]

Maybe intonation isn't the correct word. Simply it sounds like crap. Unclear fundamental, nasty overtones. I uploaded two samples a while earlier, hear for yourself.

I listened to the samples. I did hear where the GHS strings sounded out of tune. When you switch to different strings, especially switching string gauge, you need to set the bass up for those strings. Part of that is setting the intonation, adjusting the saddles so the open string is in tune with the octive up (12th fret).

You can find info on setting up your bass here on Talkbass or youtube. Or, you could take to a shop and have them do it.

 

[RocknRay]

Maybe intonation isn't the correct word. Simply it sounds like crap. Unclear fundamental, nasty overtones. I uploaded two samples a while earlier, hear for yourself.

Sounds just like what I hear with the GHS Flats (both when new and played in) vs LaBella Low Tension Flats, both made for 30" scale. The GHS are brighter and easier on my left thumb and wrist (50 years playing and old Arthur-Ritis is movin' in) but the tonal problems are real and distracting.

 

[winston]

26949568[/URL], member: 253901"]you're referring to the discussion at the 30:30 mark, IIUC they don't really advise against it: they just advise not to do it before finalising intonation at the saddle.
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I didn’t watch the vid but was gonna say the same - there’s no “point” in setting the witness point before the other setup is done, but IME it can make a noticeable difference in getting the last few % of tone and pitch focus, especially on 5 strings with less than stellar low B.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

I didn’t watch the vid but was gonna say the same - there’s no “point” in setting the witness point before the other setup is done, but IME it can make a noticeable difference in getting the last few % of tone and pitch focus, especially on 5 strings with less than stellar low B.

The problem with this strategy is that the intonation will shift when setting the witness points. Which means you will have to make a final intonation adjustment after setting the witness points. In my experience this final adjustment is usually so small that I'm not worried about getting a kink in the strings in front of the saddle (but I always set the witness points very gently). If this is a concern you can use the procedure suggested by Turnaround a couple of posts up.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

It was briefly mentioned, but have you tried lowering your pickup(s) significantly? Do those Guild pickups have powerful magnets? The variation between string brands could be specific to the metallurgy if this turns out to be an issue …just a thought - trying it is free .

With most basses this would be good advice but the pickup itself isn't height adjustable on a Starfire (except by routing/shimming but I wouldn't recommend this on a Starfire unless it has SERIOUS issues). The individual pole pieces are adjustable but unless they are set unusually high I don't think this is the problem. If the pole pieces are more or less flush with the surface of the pickup (or SLIGHTLY higher) I don't think I would touch them. Lowering them too much might affect the tone negatively. After all, the bass sounded great with the LaBellas.

I've got Pyramid Golds on my Starfire. The top of the pole pieces are flush with the surface of the pickup (or maybe just SLIGHTLY higher), which is the way it was set up from the factory. It sounds amazing. Great tone, no issues whatsoever.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

(I guess "pole pieces" may not be the correct technical term for the adjustable screws on Starfire pickups. "Steel slugs" is probably more correct but I'm sure you all understood what I meant.)

 

[Yahboy]

I'm adamant there is no twisting/wrenching/whatever you may call it. I've double-checked, I've slackened the strings, kept an eye on both the tuning post and the tailpiece so that no twists would arise or no slippages either, etc. and I also set the witness points (I'd never done this before, I had never had the need to; I've been using flats for quite a while as well) and the result is this (files below). I recorded the GHS flats, I removed the strings and I mounted the LaBella flats I was mounting earlier. The LaBella flats are relatively new, for flats (about six months, keep in mind I haven't used this bass much). At the end of the GHS file you can also hear a combination of GHS E and A strings and LaBella D and G strings so you can hear the clear difference in tone.

Both E and A string sound worst than 9025 E string on my previous experience.

My advise is contact or Email GHS customer service . or roger @Jon Moody

 

[Boneless]

Guys, you can hear the LaBellas sounding fine (actually, more than fine). They never sounded this bad even when new. It's not the pickup (it's like 3mm away from the strings when depressed at the 20th fret), it's not the setup (the actual intonation at the 12th fret is in the whereabouts, a couple of cents over, perfectly fine), it's not how I cut the string (do I really need to take a photo? I clipped the string right at the end where the string gets thinner, just enough to have three-four full turns of the string around the tuning post). Could it be twisting? Doubtful; the bridge, it's true, does lock the ball-end in place, but I've tried everything, I've slackened the strings half a dozen times and rewound them around the tuning post while keeping the ball end unstuck from the bridge right until the end, and essentially running my fingers through the string each time to ensure there is no twisting. I don't get the issue to go away or even become slightly less blatant. Also, the condescension on the matter is a bit offensive; I've been playing bass for years and I'm not a new flat string user.

 

[Boneless]

With most basses this would be good advice but the pickup itself isn't height adjustable on a Starfire (except by routing/shimming but I wouldn't recommend this on a Starfire unless it has SERIOUS issues). The individual pole pieces are adjustable but unless they are set unusually high I don't think this is the problem. If the pole pieces are more or less flush with the surface of the pickup (or SLIGHTLY higher) I don't think I would touch them. Lowering them too much might affect the tone negatively. After all, the bass sounded great with the LaBellas.

I've got Pyramid Golds on my Starfire. The top of the pole pieces are flush with the surface of the pickup (or maybe just SLIGHTLY higher), which is the way it was set up from the factory. It sounds amazing. Great tone, no issues whatsoever.

Which set of Pyramid Golds do you have? I have a set of long scale Pyramids on one of my other basses (an Orange O-Bass), they have lots of character and I actually love the way they sound but they're a bit too uneven from string to string, which I think is due to a bad string gauge pairing. The E string is too thumpy compared to the A string (which sounds perfect), and the D and G strings sound veeeery bright compared to the A string.

 

[FunkHead]

Guys, you can hear the LaBellas sounding fine (actually, more than fine). They never sounded this bad even when new. It's not the pickup (it's like 3mm away from the strings when depressed at the 20th fret), it's not the setup (the actual intonation at the 12th fret is in the whereabouts, a couple of cents over, perfectly fine), it's not how I cut the string (do I really need to take a photo? I clipped the string right at the end where the string gets thinner, just enough to have three-four full turns of the string around the tuning post). Could it be twisting? Doubtful; the bridge, it's true, does lock the ball-end in place, but I've tried everything, I've slackened the strings half a dozen times and rewound them around the tuning post while keeping the ball end unstuck from the bridge right until the end, and essentially running my fingers through the string each time to ensure there is no twisting. I don't get the issue to go away or even become slightly less blatant. Also, the condescension on the matter is a bit offensive; I've been playing bass for years and I'm not a new flat string user.

It's not a good idea to just cut the string at the very edge of the windings without making a 90 degree bend about 1 inch before the cut. It could be very possible that the core is slipping inside the windings.

 

[Boneless]

It's not a good idea to just cut the string at the very edge of the windings without making a 90 degree bend about 1 inch before the cut. It could be very possible that the core is slipping inside the windings.

In 18 years I've been playing this has *never* happened to me, nor have I seen even guitar techs do this with any consistency. It might be a way to ensure core slippage doesn't happen, but the chances of this happening are slim.

 

[FunkHead]

In 18 years I've been playing this has *never* happened to me, nor have I seen even guitar techs do this with any consistency. It might be a way to ensure core slippage doesn't happen, but the chances of this happening are slim.

The chances of GHS Precisions being bad are also slim so I am simply trying to help find the reason for your problem.