Irreversible climate damage is imminent

[Darth Handsome]

gee whiz,.. i'm on a "Like" binge!

I liked it because you said "gee whiz". I'd love it if I could.

 

[Unrepresented]

I liked this.

I'm finding myself confused by the distinctions between actions and emotions.:|

 

[Gab124]

See, I told you we agree on a lot. Saddly, were I to place a bet, it would be on the "whut happened" being the eventual outcome. You did nail it on the ecomomy, although one could argue the economy is more fragil and certainly totally affected by whatever we do at a social or political level. There in lies a big part of the argument.
Previously I had stated that the environmental issue is used by some as an excuse to gain more social control. I stand by that. Additionally, their activities are having a detrimental effect on the economy and sometimes negative effects on the environment. But, on the other hand, over production and over indulgent lifestyles have negative effects on both as well. The problem is finding a reasonable balance.
Here is an example of what I mean by over zealous environmentalists. Electric Cars. Let's look at the environmental effects. First, the batteries are very toxic. They create toxic waste and consume large quantities of energy to produce. Disposal is a problem, because the worn out battery is toxic. And the electricity to power them is not free. Oil or coal will most likely be burned to create the electricity to charge the battery, and with line loss and other inefficiencies in the delivery system, less than 100% of the energy produced is used by the car. Yes, there is wind, hydro, and nuclear, but those are ony a small part of the electric system. So I see them doing more harm than good. Oh, and just for fun, read the federal standards on the procedure to follow should you break one of the new light bulbs. You have to clean them up quickly so the fumes don't kill your puppies, kitties, or babies. Some a demo of the procedure on TV. It was, at one level, very funny. It involves protective clothing.
So when I'm told the environmentalists have it all figured out and all we need to do is follow their instuctions, I ain't buying in.

Yes, being able to agree on things is more important than having the "right" answer. I am glad you brought up the electric car, that is the dumbest thing for environmental improvement; on top of what you said most of the precious metals in them are dug out of the ground in the rainforest areas of South America, with little environmental over-site. The correct thing to do is just simply use less - and that does not even require new technology! Someone else mentioned all the other transportation devices and their pollution. It should also noted that lawn equipment is more polluting than all the modern passenger cars, and that meat, particularly beef, production more than both. It is not just transportation, but that is a component. We as a species take everything and want/have more, more, more. It is not hard to understand, I love to just flip a switch and have it become cooler or warmer. If I am in a hurry I drive to the neighborhood market instead of just going for a short healthy walk. I grew up in the 70's and that is how I was raised; and even though I understand the ramifications I still slip back to a more or less wasteful lifestyle much too often. I don't blame conservatives or liberals, religious folks or bums - it is our culture and it will be very difficult to make a change. In fact, I believe it will take a very significant episode to change us to any degree. We have and always will react more to extremes - at least as a culture. Government can't fix it directly (they can't even fix themselves) - but I can't help to believe that if we could at least completely do away with lobbyists/lobbying and put real term limits on everyone that it would be a fantastic start. Take the business and career out of politics - have government serve the people and not the corporations. I think that is why politicians keep us arguing over things like gay marriage, abortion, religious rights while keeping a thick national divide between the parties etc. so that we don't pay attention to fixing them! They would be in so much trouble if we as a nation actually came together against them!!

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Yes, being able to agree on things is more important than having the "right" answer.

Take the business and career out of politics - have government serve the people and not the corporations. I think that is why politicians keep us arguing over things like gay marriage, abortion, religious rights while keeping a thick national divide between the parties etc. so that we don't pay attention to fixing them!

Careful, the government is watching and if they find out you are on to time, you could be in big trouble.
Great conversation. I enjoy reasonable discussion. I hate ideological rants, regardless of which side.

 

[bolophonic]

The anti-climate change lobby is bankrolled by polluters. I can't imagine why anyone would carry water so enthusiastically for people who profit by damaging the environment we all need to survive.

 

[DerHoggz]

Climate change happening. Climate change doubleplus ungood.

Simple enough?

 

[pacojas]

whoa,.. Gab124 nailed it, IMHO! (too bad we have to turn him now)

 

[ZenG]

If climate change is irreversible....then what's the big deal?......can't do anything about it now.......damage done....

We made our beds and now we have to sleep in them..

Mother said there'd be days like this.....

You don't know what you have until you lose it....

Should looked before we leaped......

We burned our bridges behind us....

The early bird gets the worm...

Call me anything you like but don't call me late for dinner.......

 

[Gab124]

Careful, the government is watching and if they find out you are on to time, you could be in big trouble.
Great conversation. I enjoy reasonable discussion. I hate ideological rants, regardless of which side.

I agree. It is usually easy to identify the individuals most swayed by mis-information, spin and politics (both sides of the issue). They are typically the most dead set that they know "the real story", who's behind it and usually find it hard to consider another persons point of view. This problem is everyone's, caused by everyone and will have to be solved by everyone regardless of social status, race, political affiliation, education level or religious choice.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

I agree. It is usually easy to identify the individuals most swayed by mis-information, spin and politics (both sides of the issue). They are typically the most dead set that they know "the real story", who's behind it and usually find it hard to consider another persons point of view. This problem is everyone's, caused by everyone and will have to be solved by everyone regardless of social status, race, political affiliation, education level or religious choice.

Right and "they" should do something about it!

 

[ZenG]

You can't have a reasonable discussion on climate change.........there's too much at stake.....

You need to wait until the government officially announces The War On Ideological Ranters.......

 

[GregC]

This guy talks in simple terms anyone can understand. That is what I like about him.

This is no more useful than the uninformed dope ranting in the middle of any bar. Entertaining for some, I guess, but I hope they don't treat it as any more than that.

 

[nukes_da_bass]

I'm funding myself confused by the distinctions between actions and emotions.:|

We will help you.
Buy more.
Produce more.
(Obscure George Lucas reference).

 

[Gab124]

Right and "they" should do something about it!

"They" won't charge me for this work will they!!!

 

[Solarmist]

The people won't concern themselves with things their perceived leadership tells them are non-concerns. Thankfully, there're qualified people studying this stuff even if the general public are being done the disservice of being misled by interest-laden leadership.

So the whole nation is being "misled". The Gallup poll is a poll by Americans on what's most important at this point in time ... it's that simple. It seems your priorities differ - that's fine.

Mine OTOH line up pretty close to the Gallup rankings.

So tell me Unrepresented - what would YOU do?

Keep in mind China (which puts out roughly 50% more Co2 that us), Russia, India, and Japan couldn't give a crap about CC, and their priorities are growth - something we should be worried about.

You can't bankrupt the US with crushing CC laws while the rest of the world goes on it's merry way.

It seems to me you need to convince the rest of the world that their priorities are in the wrong place.
We've done more to lower our emissions than anyone else.

I'll respectfully ask you again - what would you do?

 

[ChrisB2]

I'm guessing ride a bicycle. That'll close the ozone hole and save the polar bears...

 

[vin*tone]

...Keep in mind China (which puts out roughly 50% more Co2 that us), Russia, India, and Japan couldn't give a crap about CC, and their priorities are growth - something we should be worried about.

You can't bankrupt the US with crushing CC laws while the rest of the world goes on it's merry way.

It seems to me you need to convince the rest of the world that their priorities are in the wrong place.
We've done more to lower our emissions than anyone else.

I'll respectfully ask you again - what would you do?

What you're actually doing is making the argument for global regulation/governance. I'm hoping you're wrong and we don't need to get to that.

All international major scientific bodies tell us this issue is not going to magically go away.

*besides - a carbon price will not bankrupt the US. Australia has had one in place for the last 2 years and contiues to outpace the USA economy. Compared to other factors (infrastructure upgrades) the carbon tax had a negligable effect on energy prices.

 

[BawanaRik]

So the whole nation is being "misled". The Gallup poll is a poll by Americans on what's most important at this point in time ... it's that simple. It seems your priorities differ - that's fine.

Mine OTOH line up pretty close to the Gallup rankings.

So tell me Unrepresented - what would YOU do?

Keep in mind China (which puts out roughly 50% more Co2 that us), Russia, India, and Japan couldn't give a crap about CC, and their priorities are growth - something we should be worried about.

You can't bankrupt the US with crushing CC laws while the rest of the world goes on it's merry way.

It seems to me you need to convince the rest of the world that their priorities are in the wrong place.
We've done more to lower our emissions than anyone else.

I'll respectfully ask you again - what would you do?

May 19 2014 WSJ page R7 How will China affect the global energy equation for the next 5 years?

This section of the WSJ report on energy made it clear that China is focused on more than just growth. Just the fact that China is selling energy producing equipment around the world makes it clear that China has CC on their agenda of issues to be addressed.

But to answer your question what would I do? I would address the issue by making those who use energy pay for the results of the production. A tax on gas would allow engineers to provide cars to consumers while incenting consumers to look for a car that doesn't use a lot of gas. Taxing gas to the $10 a gallon level would provide an incentive for 100 mpg cars. It would also provide an incentive for people to live car free lives.

I think this is a step one thing. But a step that would allow people to see the impact within a year. And provide a template for the next step. And the Next step.

 

[Unrepresented]

So the whole nation is being "misled". The Gallup poll is a poll by Americans on what's most important at this point in time ... it's that simple. It seems your priorities differ - that's fine.

Mine OTOH line up pretty close to the Gallup rankings.

So tell me Unrepresented - what would YOU do?

Keep in mind China (which puts out roughly 50% more Co2 that us), Russia, India, and Japan couldn't give a crap about CC, and their priorities are growth - something we should be worried about.

You can't bankrupt the US with crushing CC laws while the rest of the world goes on it's merry way.

It seems to me you need to convince the rest of the world that their priorities are in the wrong place.
We've done more to lower our emissions than anyone else.

I'll respectfully ask you again - what would you do?

A) Yes, people are being misled. This is, and rightfully should be, a scientific issue. Unfortunately it's been coopted as an economic and therefore political issue. Those who perceive it as a threat to their political ideology or economic interests are investing heavily in cynicism to try and prevent action from being taken.

B) I don't disagree that this is an international issue, that's why the UN's involvement makes sense. Except you've been trained to fear the UN by the same cynical interests that wish to now prevent action on climate change. Yes, all those nations we've outsourced cheap manufacturing to avoid our own domestic pollution and labor laws have built their economies around literally doing our dirty work. It will take an international body to negotiate a method of balancing the needs of the people now (social, economic) with the needs of the people of the next generation who will really inherit the mess we've made and continue to make.

 

[Solarmist]

What you're actually doing is making the argument for global regulation/governance. I'm hoping you're wrong and we don't need to get to that.

That wasn't my intent at all - I'm firmly against global regulation. I was just trying to get a straight answer from another member, and I got what I expected.