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JGR's 1200 watt micro - let the madness begin!!!!!

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Man, this sounds great & certainly has a market! Well done, JGR!

It may be time to discuss what "micro" means in the bass amp market though... 13lbs & a form factor that isn't gonna fit in a gig bag? I dunno'- there are no defined terms in this area, but it seems to be pushing the "micro" nomenclature.
 
You are absolutely correct that wattage and topology most certainly don't tell the whole story. It's also interesting to note how different amplifier topologies produce power and handle bursts somewhat differently. Did you check out Link Removed?

And of course, different designs (with different trade-offs, tweaks, etc) within the same topology will also make a big difference.

I'm going to need to read that a few more times. I get where it is going, but it's a heavy read on my phone screen. I'd like to see how this power module would do in that bench test.


"Comparison is the thief of joy."
- Theodore Roosevelt
 
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You are absolutely correct that wattage and topology most certainly don't tell the whole story. It's also interesting to note how different amplifier topologies produce power and handle bursts somewhat differently. Did you check out Link Removed?

And of course, different designs (with different trade-offs, tweaks, etc) within the same topology will also make a big difference.

Reading this article just flabbergasted me with regard to the gross simplification of an amazingly complex topic, simplification to the point of being factually incorrect in both the approach and the assumptions made throughout the article. IMO, if you are going to attempt to tackle a topic like this, you should better understand the depth and breadth of the topic, and present the details in a more accurate and informative way, one that more closely represents the real world better. Folks can not learn from inaccurately presented information.

Just starting with the grossly inaccurate assumption (and simplification) that the RMS voltage is going to be Vpeak/1.414 (or Vpeak x .707). It is in fact about as far from reality as can be. Bass guitar signals are not sinusoids, have never been nor are they likely to ever be (though they are in fact made up as a series of sinusoids represented by a Fourier series). Then, many (if not most) amplifiers being driven hard, ESPECIALLY those using tube preamps, solid state preamps with any kind of overdrive or saturation emulation, software based preamps that utilize overdrive algorithems, any amp that uses any form of dynamics management in conjunction with the above requires power analysis using the area under the curve method (or using a true RMS voltmeter that does not do it's conversion based on a sine wave and peak voltage). For instance, even a dB(power) of dynamics management in conjunction with some overdrive (they should and do go hand in hand in a well manage amp design) can represent a very large deviation between a simplistic and thorough measurement. A 1.5 dB of difference in a 500 watt amp would represent an additional 200 watts that while present if measured using the area under the curve method would not be represented using the inaccurate peak to RMS conversion because the resulting output was never intended to be sinusoid.

The other simplistic assumption that is inaccurate in the context of bass world (both bass guitar as well as bass PA applications) is the notion that a 20msec burst is of any value. Good grief guys, we are talking about 1 cycle at 50Hz. There aren't many bass guitar signals in the real world that has it's critical attack enevlope contained within the 20msec when driven hard (per the intent of the topic). In fact, when designing preamps and power amps around this attack envelope, if you are not focusing on the first 100msec you are missing an incredible amount of the tone and feel information in the context of real world performance and playability. The amplifier's performance needs to track the attack and decay envelopes within the context of the real world, not to some 20mSec burst standard that is utterly meaningless to low frequency signals. While they may make some amplifiers look better on paper, they do not translate to low frequency performance unless thay also perform the same at much longer burst periods. This 20mSec standard has nothing at all to do with the measurement of low frequency signals, it was developed as part of an old IHF standard specifically to represent higher frequency program material. I remember when it came into popularity, when Hitachi introduced class G (2 rail modulated high tier) they needed a way to express the approximate doubling of power for short periods of time for >100hz signal. They were the first to capitalize on it but why above 100Hz? Because AT THE TIME THE STANDARD WAS INTRODUCED, the LF dynamic range was limited by the reproduction medium of the day... LP's. (for those of you young enough not to be familiar with these, they were flat vinyl discs with a modulated spiral groove. The modulations (music) was cut in the master with a mechanical cutter on a record lathe and because of the mechanical limitations, the dynamic range at low frequencies were limited to prevent overcutting and chattering of the cutter in the master. The 20msec standard is only appropriate for characterizing midrange and higher dynamic performance.

Then there's the undisputable fact that some specific amplifier topologies will perform better in inductive load tests using an electro-dynamic load, but these topologies haven't even been discussed nor considered even though most of the amps being brought to the market today use at least some of this technology (including the module JGR is using). Why should any amplifier that utilizes this topology be penalized by not accounting for it's contribution? It is a significant real world contributor, one that must be accounted for if attempting to present an accurate comparison. THIS is the future guys, new designs that address WHY some of the older designs are so well liked by players, then taking the next step to make them "better". When I say "better", I mean where the original designer's might have gone with the approach had the technology been available to them at the time. I mention this because there are a few noteworthy amp designers that hang out here, and while it's easy/convenient to catagorize some of them/us as being stuck in the past, that would be an inaccurate characterization. I spent a little time with Bill Hughes a few years back, and while his legacy was the SVT, a few years back he was, and presumably still is VERY much involved with cutting edge technology and the future of MI amplification. To underestimate the creativity and wisdom of the older designers is to close your eyes to the evolution of our amplification culture. Evolution hinges on thoroughly knowing and understanding the past to take advantage of the future.

I myself have spent much of my professional career (for a variety of amplifier companies) studying and designing around this specific topic and it makes me uncomfortable to see a cpmplex (and important from the player's performace perspective) topic oversimplificated to the point of being misleading, especially when being presented as a way to make commercial comparisons that result in inaccurate results. Each design approach MUST be tested according to the amplifier's specific design approach rather than lumping all approaches together (might as well include PA amps, servo amps, mag amps, shaker table amps etc.). I would rather see more of an explaination/discussion of the hows and whys of topics such as dynamics, harmonics, frequency response, linearity, wave shapes, the engineering behind the wide variety of over techniques, etc. all the way from the bass through the speakers. If nothing else, it might develop an appreciation for the compexity of the topic and maybe stimulate some thinking about how it all applies to us in the real world as players.
 
Reading this article just flabbergasted me with regard to the gross simplification of an amazingly complex topic, simplification to the point of being factually incorrect in both the approach and the assumptions made throughout the article. IMO, if you are going to attempt to tackle a topic like this, you should better understand the depth and breadth of the topic, and present the details in a more accurate and informative way, one that more closely represents the real world better. Folks can not learn from inaccurately presented information.

Just starting with the grossly inaccurate assumption (and simplification) that the RMS voltage is going to be Vpeak/1.414 (or Vpeak x .707). It is in fact about as far from reality as can be. Bass guitar signals are not sinusoids, have never been nor are they likely to ever be (though they are in fact made up as a series of sinusoids represented by a Fourier series). Then, many (if not most) amplifiers being driven hard, ESPECIALLY those using tube preamps, solid state preamps with any kind of overdrive or saturation emulation, software based preamps that utilize overdrive algorithems, any amp that uses any form of dynamics management in conjunction with the above requires power analysis using the area under the curve method (or using a true RMS voltmeter that does not do it's conversion based on a sine wave and peak voltage). For instance, even a dB(power) of dynamics management in conjunction with some overdrive (they should and do go hand in hand in a well manage amp design) can represent a very large deviation between a simplistic and thorough measurement. A 1.5 dB of difference in a 500 watt amp would represent an additional 200 watts that while present if measured using the area under the curve method would not be represented using the inaccurate peak to RMS conversion because the resulting output was never intended to be sinusoid.

The other simplistic assumption that is inaccurate in the context of bass world (both bass guitar as well as bass PA applications) is the notion that a 20msec burst is of any value. Good grief guys, we are talking about 1 cycle at 50Hz. There aren't many bass guitar signals in the real world that has it's critical attack enevlope contained within the 20msec when driven hard (per the intent of the topic). In fact, when designing preamps and power amps around this attack envelope, if you are not focusing on the first 100msec you are missing an incredible amount of the tone and feel information in the context of real world performance and playability. The amplifier's performance needs to track the attack and decay envelopes within the context of the real world, not to some 20mSec burst standard that is utterly meaningless to low frequency signals. While they may make some amplifiers look better on paper, they do not translate to low frequency performance unless thay also perform the same at much longer burst periods. This 20mSec standard has nothing at all to do with the measurement of low frequency signals, it was developed as part of an old IHF standard specifically to represent higher frequency program material. I remember when it came into popularity, when Hitachi introduced class G (2 rail modulated high tier) they needed a way to express the approximate doubling of power for short periods of time for >100hz signal. They were the first to capitalize on it but why above 100Hz? Because AT THE TIME THE STANDARD WAS INTRODUCED, the LF dynamic range was limited by the reproduction medium of the day... LP's. (for those of you young enough not to be familiar with these, they were flat vinyl discs with a modulated spiral groove. The modulations (music) was cut in the master with a mechanical cutter on a record lathe and because of the mechanical limitations, the dynamic range at low frequencies were limited to prevent overcutting and chattering of the cutter in the master. The 20msec standard is only appropriate for characterizing midrange and higher dynamic performance.

Then there's the undisputable fact that some specific amplifier topologies will perform better in inductive load tests using an electro-dynamic load, but these topologies haven't even been discussed nor considered even though most of the amps being brought to the market today use at least some of this technology (including the module JGR is using). Why should any amplifier that utilizes this topology be penalized by not accounting for it's contribution? It is a significant real world contributor, one that must be accounted for if attempting to present an accurate comparison. THIS is the future guys, new designs that address WHY some of the older designs are so well liked by players, then taking the next step to make them "better". When I say "better", I mean where the original designer's might have gone with the approach had the technology been available to them at the time. I mention this because there are a few noteworthy amp designers that hang out here, and while it's easy/convenient to catagorize some of them/us as being stuck in the past, that would be an inaccurate characterization. I spent a little time with Bill Hughes a few years back, and while his legacy was the SVT, a few years back he was, and presumably still is VERY much involved with cutting edge technology and the future of MI amplification. To underestimate the creativity and wisdom of the older designers is to close your eyes to the evolution of our amplification culture. Evolution hinges on thoroughly knowing and understanding the past to take advantage of the future.

I myself have spent much of my professional career (for a variety of amplifier companies) studying and designing around this specific topic and it makes me uncomfortable to see a cpmplex (and important from the player's performace perspective) topic oversimplificated to the point of being misleading, especially when being presented as a way to make commercial comparisons that result in inaccurate results. Each design approach MUST be tested according to the amplifier's specific design approach rather than lumping all approaches together (might as well include PA amps, servo amps, mag amps, shaker table amps etc.). I would rather see more of an explaination/discussion of the hows and whys of topics such as dynamics, harmonics, frequency response, linearity, wave shapes, the engineering behind the wide variety of over techniques, etc. all the way from the bass through the speakers. If nothing else, it might develop an appreciation for the compexity of the topic and maybe stimulate some thinking about how it all applies to us in the real world as players.

I think you may be missing the point of the article, Andy. And please keep in mind, we have a wide-ranging audience, most of whom are not engineers. So, what may seem to be "over-simplification" to you, is also an effort to produce an article which is readable by a wider audience (though I'm sure that even in its "simplistic" form, Tom's article may be more detailed than some would prefer to read).

You know Tom Lees, Andy, so you should know that he most definitely understands the depth and breadth of the topic. And being familiar with Audio Precision systems and their programs, you should know why we used the particular test parameters. Tom Lees has been talking with the folks at AP for quite some time regarding ways to improve this burst power test. In fact, a number of tweaks have already been made by AP (to a variety of their test programs) based upon Tom's suggestions.

Please also keep in mind that Tom writes a column, with multiple installments. This is not intended to be a stand-alone treatise.

And FWIW, the article was peer-reviewed by Bob Gallien prior to publication.
 
awesome project,
call me interested.
shame i don't know jgr, this is the first time i realize he is a super engineer.

i will follow this project, maybe the amp will be available for purchase?

thanks for this awesome thread,

mariano

I'm planning on it (very small scale) - close, not quite there yet. Will make all the required disclosures when the time comes.
 
Man, this sounds great & certainly has a market! Well done, JGR!

It may be time to discuss what "micro" means in the bass amp market though... 13lbs & a form factor that isn't gonna fit in a gig bag? I dunno'- there are no defined terms in this area, but it seems to be pushing the "micro" nomenclature.

Thanks Scotch. Yeah , I put "micro" in parenthesis intentionally, sort of tongue-in-cheek, though I can't imagine anyone being put off by the size and weight given the level of quality and performance. :)
 
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The clips sound fantastic. Great clarity, great punch, and a really wonderful weight to all of the notes.

I don't recall if this unit has a DI or not, and what the details of it were (tube driven? Transformer in the DI path?), but if it does, can you provide some clips of the DI? Once it's finished of course. ;)

Being a guy that doesn't use a gig bag and need a laptop shaped head, I love the form factor. The weight is more than reasonable despite being nearly double my current head. I also really dig the simple aesthetic. I'm sure the final product will have more going on, but the overall appearance has a very sturdy, military vibe to it. This is shaping up to be absolutely brilliant. I really hope you bring these to market.
 
Thanks SM. The unit has two different Jensens, one coupling the preamp to the power amp input, and a second for the DI. The DI is similar to my other preamps with pre/post, ground/lift, and optimized to drive long cables without loss.

I may got to a four inch high (instead of 5") box since I'm sticking with 12au7/ax7 (was considering a 6sl7 front end initially), but I need to make sure it fits. The extra height came in useful in that it allowed me to mount a lot of the rear panel components on a shelf which also serves as a cooling tunnel that directs the fan (dead quiet) output over the output devices. I want to keep that aspect so I'll have to see if it will fit in a shorter unit. I'm going so do a brushed silver front faceplate with black lettering and put a black leather handle on top.
 
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Alright, got it all sorted! Shot a couple of videos, first one is long but shows a wide range of tones and EQ. Second one is grindy rock just to show it can do it, and do it well, even though it leans way more to the clean side of things. This bad boy really thumps through my NV412!

Overview (long)


Rock


Sounds great.

Any chance of some finger style on this bad boy?
 
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Thanks SM. The unit has two different Jensens, one coupling the preamp to the power amp input, and a second for the DI. The DI is similar to my other preamps with pre/post, ground/lift, and optimized to drive long cables without loss.

I may got to a four inch high (instead of 5") box since I'm sticking with 12au7/ax7 (was considering a 6sl7 front end initially), but I need to make sure it fits. The extra height came in useful in that it allowed me to mount a lot of the rear panel components on a shelf which also serves as a cooling tunnel that directs the fan (dead quiet) output over the output devices. I want to keep that aspect so I'll have to see if it will fit in a shorter unit. I'm going so do a brushed silver front faceplate with black lettering and put a black leather handle on top.

That all sounds wonderful. I for one wouldn't mind the additional height if it provided a functional advantage (cooling in this case) as you describe, but I could see it being a bigger deal for others.
 
I think you may be missing the point of the article, Andy. And please keep in mind, we have a wide-ranging audience, most of whom are not engineers. So, what may seem to be "over-simplification" to you, is also an effort to produce an article which is readable by a wider audience (though I'm sure that even in its "simplistic" form, Tom's article may be more detailed than some would prefer to read).

You know Tom Lees, Andy, so you should know that he most definitely understands the depth and breadth of the topic. And being familiar with Audio Precision systems and their programs, you should know why we used the particular test parameters. Tom Lees has been talking with the folks at AP for quite some time regarding ways to improve this burst power test. In fact, a number of tweaks have already been made by AP (to a variety of their test programs) based upon Tom's suggestions.

Please also keep in mind that Tom writes a column, with multiple installments. This is not intended to be a stand-alone treatise.

And FWIW, the article was peer-reviewed by Bob Gallien prior to publication.

Tom - I do understand the point of the article, my objection is the inaccuracies that it perpetuates. For example, it's not the "tweeks" to the burst power tests that are misrepresntative but the whole inappropriatness of applying a midrange appropriate test to a low frequency application. This is no different than catagorizing sports car perormance by a trailer towing test, virtually useless data for most users. I suspect that most users would be better served by an explaination of the various (and inter-related) topics involved in a more descriptive way than by inaccurate and/or incomplete numerical examples.

I have not seen any correction to your input AC power source standard (per the articles), therefore you can not compare on an equal basis any amplifiers without removing the external influence of incoming AC power supply defects as they are guaranteed to vary based on the load characteristics of the amplifier as well as the source impedance of the AC supply. These variations (specifically including the peak voltage) will affect accuracy of the numerical results used in comparisons. Without this being standardized, every result will be inaccurate to a different degree relative to using a standardized power source. The "real world" argument just doesn't apply here because a 1000 watt amp will always incur a greater penalty relative to a 100 watt amp, and different power supply topologies will be influenced in a different way as well depending on the particular defects in the powewr source. Test standards (baseline) must include an incoming AC THD to guarantee that the peak voltage does not sag due to AC power source defects unrelated to the amplifier under test. An RMS voltmeter reading 120V doesn't tell you anything more than the RMS voltage, and depending on the meter's algorithem may or may not consider the peak voltage which is at least (if not more) important for most power supply topologies.

It's certainly a lot easier doing the armchair engineering, I get that. I am suggesting that if you guys are promoting this as "better" than the other review methods that you do take it to a "better" level. For example, go ahead and EXPLAIN WHY AC line quality matters, and WHY standards are used in the industry, and HOW defects in the AC line alter the standardized baseline results. Explain the factors involved with attack and decay envelops in a bass guitar signal, explain the harmonic structure of a bass guitar signal, don't forget to explain HOW and WHY the harmonics levels often exceed the fundamental level and what that brings to the tone, and that a string vibrates within in a cylindrical boundery and not a flat plane. It might be informative to take this information in the context of a pickup's magnetic fields and how this might influence the shape of the waveform (and thus the tone and feel). This is the real engineering behind what makes this industry's products (not just amps) tick.

Just trying to get folks thinking beyond the easy, less important stuff when it comes to the bigger picture, and it doesn't have to involve much math either. Well crafted descriptions might IMO be more useful than the math anyway.
 
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With the case being metal, I'm sure you'll have to do the leather top handle with machine screws paired with a nut and washer on the inside of the case. Don't do the wood screw (could you even?) into the top thing. I've see far too many eventually pull out of the hole when being carried, which leads to a catastrophic drop. This is typically with much heavier heads, but should be right up there with your excellent attention to detail.
 
With the case being metal, I'm sure you'll have to do the leather top handle with machine screws paired with a nut and washer on the inside of the case. Don't do the wood screw (could you even?) into the top thing. I've see far too many eventually pull out of the hole when being carried, which leads to a catastrophic drop. This is typically with much heavier heads, but should be right up there with your excellent attention to detail.

Don't you worry, I use SS hardware and nylok nuts throughout. I generally replace all stock hardware on everything - and most of it is even made in the USA!
 
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