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Jule Amps Monique part 5

#941
Randyt said:
just asking a question about substitute tubes...there is nothing wrong with the MO!...I just like having back ups just in case...I ve done this with all my tube amps.

2x 6N5P's or 6SL7....Looking at Northern Electric
12AU7...can a 12AX7 be used??...distortion?... load greater?...problems?...I have 12ax7 Northern Electric in stock at house.
6CA4 or JJ-EZ81....is there another number/tube I can use for rectifier? or do I have to use JJ's???

http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/Northern-Electric

I apologize if this was covered...but I did not see it in past posts

thanks

Randyt
Click to expand...

I actually think that the stock 6SL7 tubes that Jule provides aren't bad. I keep those as my spares. These days I'm running an old brown-base Tung-Sol in my V1 tube position. I loved the OLD JAN RCA Blackplate I had, but it ended up going bad really fast (and on stage). It got moved to the V2 position and hasn't been a problem there. The Tung-Sol ended up having a more mid forward tone than my replacement RCA (later issue black plate) which was a bit smoother but didn't sound as good as the first one I had been using. . I ended up liking the punch of the Tung Sol. Up front I'll tell you that I think a WHOLE lot of tone variation is in that rectifier tube. I ended up liking the JJ tube that came with Monique well better than the Mullard NOS I got for it. It was smooth but lacked that really blurby punchy attack envelope. I still use a GE grey plate 12AU7 in that position. I think they're damn cheap and nearly as good as any of the top tier tubes people talk about.

I'd suggest this thread too VVVVVVVV

Passinwind said:
As far as 6SL7s, you might want to check out this thread: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/lets-talk-about-6sl7-tubes.893791/
Click to expand...

Yep.

Jule Potter said:
Thank you Randy. It is, after all, about having fun.

A good set of 6SL7 tubes isn't a bad idea at all. Better yet, a second or third Monique. :) And yes, a rectifier (6CA4) and a 12AU7 too, as long as you are going that way. After hearing a couple thousand 6SL7 tubes, I still prefer the Shuguang 6SL7 (made for the Russian market). For a long time I preferred the Tung Sol 6SL7 in the EQ position. It has less gain compared to the Shuguang or EH. The EH 6SL7 usually sounds good, but manufacturing and tone is not consistent. For my customers, I can not use NOS tubes because they are not readily available. They (NOS) can be great, but they are unpredictable.

There is a supple dynamic to the Shuguang 6SL7 that is hard to beat. Not at all stiff. Not saggy. I found out about it from some of the very high end home stereo builders.

The 12AU7 sounds greatly better for bass than a 12AX7. You can get by with a 12AX7 or even a 12AT7.

As to the JJ 6CA4 Rectifier, I had to give up on them years ago. Too many of them had a filament failure. It would just go dark. Since then I have changed to the EH 6CA4 and I think I have had only one fail in burn-in/testing, and to my knowledge, none have failed for my customers. If you can get hold of a good EZ80 Rectifier, that is a good substitute. Unfortunately I can't find any that are currently being manufactured. They (the EZ80) will give a bit more natural compression than the 6CA4/EZ81.
Click to expand...

Luckily, that's JJ 6CA4 is one that HASN'T failed on me yet...It's a great sounding tube. :)

MarkA said:
Okay, so there are four tubes in Monique?

For us tube neophytes, Jule, would you mind giving a quick run down of what each does and its position in the signal chain?
Click to expand...

V1 6SL7: initial gain
V2 6SL7: drives EQ
12AU7: Half of the tube drives the balanced DI. The other half is now implemented for the line out I think (?)...IIRC that part was a later change to the design
EZ81: Rectifier tube.
 
#942
BurningSkies said:
I actually think that the stock 6SL7 tubes that Jule provides aren't bad. I keep those as my spares. These days I'm running an old brown-base Tung-Sol in my V1 tube position. I loved the OLD JAN RCA Blackplate I had, but it ended up going bad really fast (and on stage). It got moved to the V2 position and hasn't been a problem there. The Tung-Sol ended up having a more mid forward tone than my replacement RCA (later issue black plate) which was a bit smoother but didn't sound as good as the first one I had been using. . I ended up liking the punch of the Tung Sol. Up front I'll tell you that I think a WHOLE lot of tone variation is in that rectifier tube. I ended up liking the JJ tube that came with Monique well better than the Mullard NOS I got for it. It was smooth but lacked that really blurby punchy attack envelope. I still use a GE grey plate 12AU7 in that position. I think they're damn cheap and nearly as good as any of the top tier tubes people talk about.

I'd suggest this thread too VVVVVVVV



Yep.



Luckily, that's JJ 6CA4 is one that HASN'T failed on me yet...It's a great sounding tube. :)



V1 6SL7: initial gain
V2 6SL7: drives EQ
12AU7: Half of the tube drives the balanced DI. The other half is now implemented for the line out I think (?)...IIRC that part was a later change to the design
EZ81: Rectifier tube.
Click to expand...

Thank you! (Had to look up "Invalid Link Removed"). This is based on a lot of surmise, but could you say that the two "highest impact" positions are V1 and the rectifier tube? I know that everything interacts and every amp is different, but based on what I've read here and my own limited experiments with the tubes in my Walkabout, it seems that V1 has more of a direct impact on the tone. And am I reading you right, that a tube that went somehow bad in V1 is now functioning okay in V2?

The number of possible tube combinations goes up exponentially with the number of tubes in play, so I'm trying to narrow down where to start!
 
#943
Yep, the V1 which is the initial gain staging is probably the most bang for your buck placement in terms of tonal difference. I think it was Chadds who might have mentioned that the V2 might be a good place for my RCA which had started to grumble or crackle of and on. The V2 drives the tone circuit, so theoretically as long as your tube is functioning, your tone controls should have the 'sweep' they're designed for.

The recti to me has more to do with "feel" than tone. It is where that lovely punchy note envelope and attack comes from.
 
#944
Re: Monique tubes....

I think the tubes supplied by Jule sound great as is, but I have never been a big tube roller anyways.

I don't like sending my Monique 4600km from Toronto to Santa Cruz for service, so I grabbed a backup set of tubes. Here is a couple of pics of the standard Monique tubes:

70b91fd58f92289e51659887332bba40_zps96d02929.jpg

eb0590d95cfb3c89ecc527ff21349cad_zpse6b7ca9d.jpg
 
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#945
Thanks, guys! And, Baird, the visuals help!

Feel is important, and I'm always after articulation. Coming from solid-state amps and a solid-state sensibility, it's a fine line for me: that tiny bit of give makes things feel more natural and elastic, but too much compromises transients and makes things feel mushy.

If I were to nudge Monique via tube choice, it would be slightly in the direction of tighter/quicker and brighter/more open up top. These are little nudges, mind you -- I don't want to give up the harmonic complexity and don't want to thin out the sound... just put a little more tension on the elastic -- make the trampoline a little more taut -- and open up the top-end a bit.

When I'm ready to explore that particular rabbit-hole, it will be with those goals in mind.
 
#946
My vote would be to try a Sylvania in the V1. Passinwind and I talk about the Sylvanias from time to time. I find them a bit cold and 'clinical' he finds them to be 'accurate'. Some of the golden tubes tend to be warmer and softer (like the RCA's). You might consider going the 'grab bag' route and pick 3 or 4 tubes in the lower and mid pricing range and see what you like.
 
#947
BurningSkies said:
My vote would be to try a Sylvania in the V1. Passinwind and I talk about the Sylvanias from time to time. I find them a bit cold and 'clinical' he finds them to be 'accurate'. Some of the golden tubes tend to be warmer and softer (like the RCA's). You might consider going the 'grab bag' route and pick 3 or 4 tubes in the lower and mid pricing range and see what you like.
Click to expand...

Good call. I only play fretless active basses, so an extra grain or two of salt is always advisable when considering my take on these things. In this case, even more so as I have yet to hear a Monique in the flesh.
 
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#949
BurningSkies said:
My vote would be to try a Sylvania in the V1. Passinwind and I talk about the Sylvanias from time to time. I find them a bit cold and 'clinical' he finds them to be 'accurate'. Some of the golden tubes tend to be warmer and softer (like the RCA's). You might consider going the 'grab bag' route and pick 3 or 4 tubes in the lower and mid pricing range and see what you like.
Click to expand...

Hey, lower-to-mid priced is the total of my price range. I don't know enough to be chasing after the NOS stuff (at least the fancy stuff, occurs to me that some of the tubes you mention might be NOS).
 
#950
Just because they're NOS or JAN doesn't have to mean huge bucks (but it can).

If you look through Jessee's list of 6SL7's you see a number of tubes in the under 20$ range. He's a reputable dealer who tests thoroughly. If you were trying to 'nail down' a sound, I'd be thinking of picking out 3 or 4 options in that price range then trying them out.

http://www.audiotubes.com/6sl7.htm
 
#953
BurningSkies said:
I actually think that the stock 6SL7 tubes that Jule provides aren't bad. I keep those as my spares. These days I'm running an old brown-base Tung-Sol in my V1 tube position. I loved the OLD JAN RCA Blackplate I had, but it ended up going bad really fast (and on stage). It got moved to the V2 position and hasn't been a problem there. The Tung-Sol ended up having a more mid forward tone than my replacement RCA (later issue black plate) which was a bit smoother but didn't sound as good as the first one I had been using. . I ended up liking the punch of the Tung Sol. Up front I'll tell you that I think a WHOLE lot of tone variation is in that rectifier tube. I ended up liking the JJ tube that came with Monique well better than the Mullard NOS I got for it. It was smooth but lacked that really blurby punchy attack envelope. I still use a GE grey plate 12AU7 in that position. I think they're damn cheap and nearly as good as any of the top tier tubes people talk about.

I'd suggest this thread too VVVVVVVV



Yep.



Luckily, that's JJ 6CA4 is one that HASN'T failed on me yet...It's a great sounding tube. :)



V1 6SL7: initial gain
V2 6SL7: drives EQ
12AU7: Half of the tube drives the balanced DI. The other half is now implemented for the line out I think (?)...IIRC that part was a later change to the design
EZ81: Rectifier tube.
Click to expand...

The interesting thing about the JJ rectifier failures what that the vast majority worked and continue to work. What bugged me the most was that the tube would make it through two days of burn-in and then fail in the first week for my customers. That was aggravating for everyone. The EH 6CA4/EZ81 is stiffer than the JJ but more reliable.
 
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#954
MarkA said:
Thank you! (Had to look up "Invalid Link Removed"). This is based on a lot of surmise, but could you say that the two "highest impact" positions are V1 and the rectifier tube? I know that everything interacts and every amp is different, but based on what I've read here and my own limited experiments with the tubes in my Walkabout, it seems that V1 has more of a direct impact on the tone. And am I reading you right, that a tube that went somehow bad in V1 is now functioning okay in V2?

The number of possible tube combinations goes up exponentially with the number of tubes in play, so I'm trying to narrow down where to start!
Click to expand...
I'd go for that description.

And yes, it is common to take a micro-phonic tube (of any kind) and move it from a high gain position to a medium or low gain position to stop it from abusing us. Micro-phonics do not bother us much unless they are being pushed hard.
 
#955
Jule Potter said:
The interesting thing about the JJ rectifier failures what that the vast majority worked and continue to work. What bugged me the most was that the tube would make it through two days of burn-in and then fail in the first week for my customers. That was aggravating for everyone. The EH 6CA4/EZ81 is stiffer than the JJ but more reliable.
Click to expand...

How does that translate? I didn't like the Mullard EZ81 because it removed some of the punch and quickness that I heard in the JJ. Where does the EH fit into that continuum?
 
#956
chadds said:
I ended up liking the punch and immediacy of the EH rectifier tube. The 1944 JAN NOS RCA rectifier & an ancient no name English rectifier tube, while sweet sounding had too much give. I'm sure that's exactly what a guitarist would like. So for me the luscious tube front end with the more contemporary tightness is a win.
Click to expand...
At this time in my life, saggy is becoming more acceptable. ;)

Yes. I would expect the EH to be stiffer, more defined. The JJ less so. An EZ80 even less so, but there are wide variations in the EZ80 tubes we can get our hands on, so I would expect the experience to vary.
 
#957
BurningSkies said:
How does that translate? I didn't like the Mullard EZ81 because it removed some of the punch and quickness that I heard in the JJ. Where does the EH fit into that continuum?
Click to expand...
I would expect the EH to be even stiffer. I am guessing, but I expect that the NOS Mullard EZ81 was well used, and not capable of handling the workload like an original Mullard. As I recall them when they were new (back to the saggy comment) they were quite stiff.

When the EZ80 and EZ81 were the primary rectifier workhorses, before solid state rectifier diodes, manufacturers made them as stiff as they could get them. Nobody cared about sag or even musicality. They were in most tube radios, phonographs and electronic test equipment. You could easily find them inside a poorly lit piece of gear because they were the tube that could easily burn your fingerprints off.

That 12AU7 can significantly change the final sound too. It (as mentioned above) does dual duty of directly driving the Line Out, and driving the Cinemag Balanced Output transformer. It is easy to change/replace with any of the 12--7 tubes. The venerable 12AU7 is well known as excellent for bass.

The only serious consideration regarding "tube rolling" is to stay within the original filament current requirements. A 6SL7 requires 300 mills of filament current, as do any of the 12--7 tubes. The concern is that some of the alternates to the 6SL7 draw twice the filament current. That could destroy the power transformer eventually.

The EZ80 draws 1 amp itself. That is a lot of current if you figure most home circuit breakers are only 10 amps. That is why it has the ability to remove fingerprints. You never know when that might be a good feature. :whistle:
 
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#959
Okay. De Bassist magazine #29 is here - with the long awaited All Tube Preamp/DI test in it - including the incredible Monique. The only online link so far is here: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] you can not really read it and moreover - it's in Dutch anyway. But you can hear the sound clips of all 7 devices played with 3 different basses! You can explore them here and make your own judgment: Invalid Link Removed. Have fun!
 
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#960
This is really wonderful. Thank you for putting this together Joris. It is an honor to have one's work represented among this awesome parade of gear (and playing).

JvN said:
Okay. De Bassist magazine #29 is here - with the long awaited All Tube Preamp/DI test in it - including the incredible Monique. The only online link so far is here: Invalid Link Removed you can not really read it and moreover - it's in Dutch anyway. But you can hear the sound clips of all 7 devices played with 3 different basses! You can explore them here and make your own judgment: Invalid Link Removed. Have fun!
Click to expand...
 
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