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Double Bass Keeping Time

#41
Ed Fuqua said:
Well, here's the problem. HOW is tapping your foot " a good way to....keep time" if you CAN'T keep time playing? The YOU that is playing and rushing like a bastard is the same YOU that is tapping the foot, right? So, Dan, what's the mechanism that is making the foot's time better than the foot "owner's" time?
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I'm with Ed on this one. Time has to be internal. Tapping your foot if your time is bad won't help. Spending valuable practice time working on tapping your foot seems silly. Work on playing the bass.

Doesn't mean I don't tap my foot or move my body from time to time but those actions are a byproduct of the tune grooving not a vehicle to keep time.

I will reiterate my original post though. In order to internalize time you have to listen to it. When i was in college my teacher, Earl Gately, challenged me to listen to nothing but jazz for 1 month and see how it effects my time keeping. Amazing. It helps.
 
#43
ricmos said:
To be clear on my metronome question, are there metronomes that you can set for beat 2 and 4, 1 and 3 etc., or are you just to imagine that that's what's going on?Ric
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There are some metronomes that will emphasize one of the clicks - CLICK click click click CLICK click click click - and will allow you to set how many clicks between emphasized beats (for example you want 5/4 you can set it to CLICK click click click clikc CLICK etc.) but pretty much any of them you still have to "imagine". I still use just a regular old one click sound nome and if I want to play quarter notes = 60 bpm (i.e. one note per one beat or all four) I just set that sucker for 60. If I want to play with the click on two or four, I can leave that sucker set on 60 and just count to myself one CLICK three CLICK. If I want to play on one and three I can leave set on 60 and count to myself CLICK two CLICK four.

If I want to play in 5/4, I can leave it on 60 and count to myself CLICK two CLICK four CLICK one CLICK three CLICK fibe CLICK two CLICK four etc.

KARNDAWG - yeah, but I'm just sitting at my desk avoiding working on the 08 budget. But to focus a little, it's not really about whether to tap or not to tap. It's about whther or not tapping is going to do anything to help the OP and his original concern of not being able to take a solo without rushing like a bastard. If he's playing in time, it doesn't matter what he does. If he's NOT playing in time, he needs to do specific work to deal with that. My contention is that tapping your foot is NOT specific work that helps improve your time.
As far as who's right, Eddie or Sam, I can only say, Yes.
 
#44
When I was working on this issue with my teacher, he was really able to help me with it. His advice? Sing the pulse as "doo dah doo dah doo dah doo dah....". Sing it along with pre-recorded tracks. Sing it with the nome. Sing it while you're walking to work. Sing it in your head while you're playing.

Several years and a couple hundred gigs later, when I feel my time drifting a bit, or if I need to re-anchor myself, I start with the "doo dah" biz. I only need a few of 'em to get it back.
 
#45
Daniel LeClaire said:
OP was having trouble keeping time while playing without any comping.
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Well, no, that's not what was happening. If you read the original post he says "I ALWAYS speed up when I solo and almost always speed up when I start walking." The "not comping "part comes in because the guitar player drops out when RICMOS starts rushing. It's not that comping stops and rushing starts. It's that rushing starts and comping stops.

On that note, I was doing a gig with a pianist and drummer (who knew each other well and were good friends), we started a tune pretty quick and when we hit the drum solo, the drummer really picked it up. So coming back into the head for the trip out was VERY much noticeably faster. It was the break tune and so after, Jeb starts introducing the band "I'm Jeb on piano, Ed on bass and on drums, that timeless jazz legend, Jimmy Rushing!"
 
#46
ricmos said:
I do tap my foot sometimes. I haven't tried to as a means to keep in time. I will though as an experiment.

To be clear on my metronome question, are there metronomes that you can set for beat 2 and 4, 1 and 3 etc., or are you just to imagine that that's what's going on?

Nice discourse!
Ric
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Yes. You just use regular metronome and cut the speed down in half and think of it as 2 and 4. It takes a little practice to get hang of counting yourself in. Easiest I found is start saying to the click 2, 4, 2, 4. Then fill-in the three, 2, 3, 4, and coming in on the 1.


I have to I disagree with Ed and others getting something physical going helps people keep time steady. Seen it taught and work in music schools for years. I first got it from horn players and they were tapping 1 and 3 with right foot, left foot especially for fast tempos. Seen in performace classes teacher get players to start moving something, actually moving anything but don't tap foot, bad for stage presence. As soon as student would start moving not only time would start improve but so would feel. Musicians in general have been tapping feet, swaying, shrugging shoulder, bouncing head, twitch muscles, and other things while playing. Everyone has to do what works for them, but seen moving something help a lot of people over the years.
 
#49
DocBop said:
I have to I disagree with Ed and others getting something physical going helps people keep time steady. Seen it taught and work in music schools for years. I first got it from horn players and they were tapping 1 and 3 with right foot, left foot especially for fast tempos. Seen in performace classes teacher get players to start moving something, actually moving anything but don't tap foot, bad for stage presence. As soon as student would start moving not only time would start improve but so would feel. Musicians in general have been tapping feet, swaying, shrugging shoulder, bouncing head, twitch muscles, and other things while playing. Everyone has to do what works for them, but seen moving something help a lot of people over the years.
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Just so I'm clear then, when a student walks in to the Dojo of Cool and says " I have a terrible problem keeping time, I always rush." your best and most well considered advice is to say " Well don't worry about working with a metronome, just start tapping your foot or something."?

Because (again) I'm NOT saying "Don't ever tap NUTHIN." Some folks do, some folks don't. There's a great video clip of Bird playing and he's sitting absolutley perfectly still.
ASIDE: And that's one of the problems Jon's dad (Jimmy Raney) had with the Eastwood film, Forest Whitaker's portrayal of Bird constantly gyrating when performing. Jimmy played with Bird and he knew that was a mischaracterization.
It's just, as I continue to say, the same person that's rushing is the same person that's tapping. If your playing is rushing, your tapping will rush too.

You want to work on improving your time, get a nome.
 
#50
I'm inclined to agree with Ed on this. I have seen some players with awesome time tapping their feet....and not always in time with the tune they were playing. This would lead me to believe that there is a disconnect between the head and the foot. Now what would THAT do to your time if you relied too heavily on a tapping foot. To me, it's like feeling the swing in a line written as a straight eighth note line; it comes from the inside first.
 
#53
Ed Fuqua said:
Just so I'm clear then, when a student walks in to the Dojo of Cool and says " I have a terrible problem keeping time, I always rush." your best and most well considered advice is to say " Well don't worry about working with a metronome, just start tapping your foot or something."?

Because (again) I'm NOT saying "Don't ever tap NUTHIN." Some folks do, some folks don't. There's a great video clip of Bird playing and he's sitting absolutley perfectly still.
ASIDE: And that's one of the problems Jon's dad (Jimmy Raney) had with the Eastwood film, Forest Whitaker's portrayal of Bird constantly gyrating when performing. Jimmy played with Bird and he knew that was a mischaracterization.
It's just, as I continue to say, the same person that's rushing is the same person that's tapping. If your playing is rushing, your tapping will rush too.

You want to work on improving your time, get a nome.
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Did you read my posts??? I was talking to the poster about ways of using a metronome. I also believe moving something ALONG WITH the metronome or drummer helps many get consistent.
 
#54
I've found that it is valuable to learn to play a solid groove without having to tap or bob or shake any other body parts, other than the ones (arms, hands and fingers) that you absolutely need to get the sound out of the bass.

Then, if it feels good, go ahead and tap and shake and bob.

It sounds to me like the original poster is suffeing from a common problem: When we stop playing continuous time, then there is a lot of space and air -- then we panic and attempt to fill the space with a bunch of notes. We short-change the rests, and the tune gets faster.

I think a lot of people rush because they are short-changing the rests, not because they are playing the notes incorrectly. I often hear that the notes are "in-time," but the whole phrase is offset because the rests are not really in-time. The bassist is not "playing" the rests for their full value. Make sure that the attack and release of each note is precise, or else the rests will not be clear and the time will be fuzzy.

I would suggest practicing soloing with a lot of whole- and half-notes, mixed with some quarter-note solo lines. That means whole-, half-. and quarter-rests as well. Learn to hear the rests and you are on your way to making the actual notes feel good and in the pocket.

Once you can play nice long solos with only whole/half/and quarter-notes, then try eighth-note solo lines while giving the same attention to all of the rests and spaces and silences. Like Prince says (wrong forum for this quote), "Silence" is the unseen member of the band.

Don't tap, bob. or shake while you are "playing" the rests. Just listen to them. You don't have to do any extra physical activity to "make" the time happen. The time is just there -- either you are playing it, or you are not. If you really listen to what you are doing, then you'll hear what's going on.

You can use a metronome to practice this -- a lot of posters have given great ideas about that. But -- you eventually have to be able to create the time flow on your own.

John
 
#55
There are a lot of different ways and reasons for rushing (not playing rests properly definitely being one), but as Ed (and others) says, the only way to really sort it out properly when you're practising is with a metronome. From what he's posted here, I don't think he's saying one way or the other whether or not you should tap your foot or otherwise move anything on the gig. What he's saying is that tapping your foot won't sort out bad time on its own. Someone who's rushing or dragging will just tap their foot faster or slower until they sort out their time internally, and practising with a metronome is the way to do that.

Put me in the "move less" camp though. Personally, pretty much the only time I ever find foot tapping particularly helpful is if I'm trying to hold back someone in the band who's rushing;)
 
#56
The times I've seen Barry Harris play at the Vanguard, I would notice he was taping either on 1 or 3, or just on 1 (especially for really up tempo tunes). I remember reading somewhere that when he's improvising, he's thinking of playing most of his lines to either end or begin on the 1. After I learned this, I started doing the same thing, and it helps a lot (again, especially on the up tunes...you can count the 1 every two bars, etc) So yeah, to each his/her own.
 
#57
I can just see it now..." Does anybody know what kind of shoes Scott Colley uses?"
"Which keeps better time, Birkenstocks or Keen?"
" Does anybody else have any experience with Earth shoes rushing?"
"My current shoes hae had great time, but I need to replace one of the heels. Will that effect the time keeping? Should I get both heels replaced at teh same time?"
 
#59
Thyroid problems can affect time.

I became extremely hypothyroid after surgery and didn't discover it for a year. My time really dragged (as well as being cold in the Texas summer heat). I found it very perplexing. Once I got my meds straightened out, everything was fine.
 
#60
To revisit what someone (Ed Fuqua I think) said much earlier is to relax. After several Alexander Technique lessons I became aware that I was throwing my mind out in front of my actual real time playing. In forcing my body to try and catch up to where my thoughts had raced I would speed up. That flash of epiphany, relaxing and allowing my mind to remain "in the moment" did as much for my time as years of hard work with the metronome.
 

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