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Lavalier microphone in a sound chamber?

MaHei

MaHei

Dec 24, 2002
550
241
It really ties the room together.
#1
I am not placing this in the pickup forum because I want to hear what instrument builders think.

As much as I love the sound of magnetic pickups on electric bass, I have always felt that builders and consumers were missing out by ignoring the natural acoustic sound of an electric bass, especially on fretless. Why shouldn't it be possible to blend the sound of the magnetic pickups with the amplified acoustic sound of a solid/chambered/semi-hollow instrument?

It has been done with piezos you say. True, but I have yet to hear a piezo system that convinces me. To me they sound like a mediocre imitation of the acoustic sound. Upright players use piezo systems, of course, but from what I hear, the use of a good microphone leads to better results.

To get to the point:
What do you think of integrating a lavalier mic with an existing preamp and pickup system?
What technical problems do you foresee? Powering issues? Impedance problems?
 
#2
I've seen condenser mics offered for mounting inside acoustic guitars, but can't say that I've ever heard it for comparison. See MiniFlex, GHS, etc. as an example:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Invalid Link Removed
http://highlanderpickups.com/catalog/hmic.htm

I'm not sure that a chambered bass would actually create enough sound pressure difference to be detected by such a mic, or whether the tone will be anywhere near what you expect.
 
#4
Would love to give it a try, but know nothing about buffering, impedance mismatches etc. Is it even theoretically possible? How would you go about connecting the mic to an on board preamp?

As to the sound(s) I expect: Put your ear to the bass and play unamplified. It's not even all that quiet. I think there are many sounds to discover there.
 
#5
I tried this many years ago in a semi-acoustic Hofner. All I can say is that I hope lavalier technology has moved on since the late 1970's because all I got for my pains was uncontrollable boom and feedback.

My simple view is that with many thousands, maybe even millions of musicians experimenting with stuff to see if they can build better sounding systems, there's a pretty fair chance that the collective has tried just about everything. There's also a pretty fair assumption that if a system of any type is not commonly available already, it's probably for a good reason.
 
#6
I completely understand your line of reasoning, but I am not convinced (yet) that it has been done. Here we are in Luthier's Corner and so far you are the only one who has done experiments going in this direction.

Mind you, these systems seem to work for other instruments. The technology is there, only the application might be new.
 
#7
I would be concerned with the lav being able to reproduce the low end. Make sure you check the frequency range of the lav.

By the way David Torn (guitar player) has been putting mics in his semi hollow guitars for years and uses them for feedback purposes.

I have always wanted to capture that sound when you stick your ear on the neck or body of a solid wood bass, I love the sound of that tone, yet never heard it yet in the real world.

Good luck,
Let us know what you find out.
Dirk
 
#8
I'm by no means a luthier, but I wouldn't use a lav mic as there are better, cheaper options.

I would try something along the lines of a electret condenser like a panasonic wm-61. It is very cost efficient and there is plenty of information on circuit integration.

If it is something you just want to try out you could run down to radio shack and pick up one of their electret mics.
 
#9
Thanks for your input all.

I'm not worried about the low end since I would blend with the magnetic pickups, if that works. In fact, a high pass filter might be a good thing to avoid low end clutter. What I am hoping to achieve, is to fill in some mids and highs with acoustic harmonics and percussive attack.

Great idea with the electret capsules, time to do some reading.
 
#11
Jools4001 said:
My simple view is that with many thousands, maybe even millions of musicians experimenting with stuff to see if they can build better sounding systems, there's a pretty fair chance that the collective has tried just about everything. There's also a pretty fair assumption that if a system of any type is not commonly available already, it's probably for a good reason.
Click to expand...

"Why try, somebody else must have already!"

i say go for it. what do you have to lose? stick a small mic in there and wire it in. see what happens. wash, rinse, repeat. maybe the person who has tried it before didn't like it. but maybe you will.

i would also love to be able to get that tone you get when you press your ear to the wood. dunno how likely it would ever be.
 
#13
The Musical Instrument Maker's Forum (Invalid Link Removed) has a bunch of info on doing this for acoustics and resonators, but I couldn't find anything about chambered.

Here's a preamp schematic on their site for an electret as mentioned above:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
I'd probably try to find an opamp better than the LM741, though.
 
#16
MaHei said:
I am not placing this in the pickup forum because I want to hear what instrument builders think.

As much as I love the sound of magnetic pickups on electric bass, I have always felt that builders and consumers were missing out by ignoring the natural acoustic sound of an electric bass, especially on fretless. Why shouldn't it be possible to blend the sound of the magnetic pickups with the amplified acoustic sound of a solid/chambered/semi-hollow instrument?

It has been done with piezos you say. True, but I have yet to hear a piezo system that convinces me. To me they sound like a mediocre imitation of the acoustic sound. Upright players use piezo systems, of course, but from what I hear, the use of a good microphone leads to better results.

To get to the point:
What do you think of integrating a lavalier mic with an existing preamp and pickup system?
What technical problems do you foresee? Powering issues? Impedance problems?
Click to expand...
It's an interesting idea. Lav's are designed to reproduce voice. Have you looked at the frequency response curve? Here's an example (look in the Specs tab)

http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/sm/sm11-lavalier-microphone
 
#18
bassk81976 said:
"Why try, somebody else must have already!"

i say go for it. what do you have to lose? stick a small mic in there and wire it in. see what happens. wash, rinse, repeat. maybe the person who has tried it before didn't like it. but maybe you will.

i would also love to be able to get that tone you get when you press your ear to the wood. dunno how likely it would ever be.
Click to expand...

Selective quotation which misses the point that I have tried, and I have done it already, before reaching my conclusion. Have you?
 
#19
Jools4001 said:
Selective quotation which misses the point that I have tried, and I have done it already, before reaching my conclusion. Have you?
Click to expand...

Not selective, you said that you tried it in the 70s. Technology has changed. And the fact stil stands, the quote implied that since other people have tried, the op shouldn't bother trying. I questioned that implication.

As for my own personal attempts, no I haven't. I merely saw it on the front page, so I read and posted in it. I'm entitled to my opinion, that it never hurts to try.
 
#20
My acoustic guitar has a mic system that blends with the transducer pickup - but I find that any more than a tiny bit causes problems with unwanted noise (feedback, boominess, handling noise).

That said, the tiny bit I blend in does add a nice touch of 'authenticity' to the sound...

I also use K&K transducer pickups rather than piezos -- they have a much better sound than traditional bridge piezos (which I hate). While they are targeted for acoustic guitars, I have worked directly with the guy who runs K&K, and he got me the particular wiring end I needed to connect into my Alvarez preamp - he actually answers the phone when you call. If anyone could help with this application, he could.

I love their Pure Western acoustic guitar pickup -- it's hands-down better than the onboard stuff on any sub-$1000 guitar.
 

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