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Learning fretless; fretlines or not?

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#21
I would say it depends on how long you have been playing bass, period.

If you are just starting, the lines may be a help. OTOH if you have played fretted basses for many years you probably have pretty good "muscle memory" built-in and then I would definitely recommend unlined.

I have been playing (fretted) for 28 years, and recently had the chance to try out an unlined fretless and a lined fretless on separate occasions. Strangely enough I did a lot better on the unlined than on the lined (intonation wise) and I think it's cause when the fretlines were there I was playing by look but without them I was relying more on muscle memory and ear. Also, even with the fretlines you will still have to work on intonation and it may actually make it harder, since depending on where you are on the neck will determine where you press the string relative to the lines. I.e., dead center between 4th and 5th "fret" may be dead-on but may be "off" between 12th and 13th fret.

And if looks count for anything, well then unlined is the way to go, hands down.

Hope this helps.
 
#23
When I play in a University big band, I have to watch both the chart and the director. Because of this, I can't afford to be looking at lines for my intonation. My fretless is a lined fretless, but unlined with dots suites me better because it gives me a reference point for when I have to jump 5 or 6 six positions, then I can go back to watching who/whatever I need to and rely on my ears for the rest. I kinda wish I would have just gotten an unlined neck instead of ripping my frets out so long ago because I wound up relying on my eyes before I started going to college for music. I haven't been here for very long, but the other day one of the guys told me "ok, tomorrow you're playing fretted" because my intonation is so bad when I'm not looking.

So, what I'm getting at here is this: If you think you might wind up in situations where you need to look at other things than your neck, get an unlined and train your ears. If you're ok with having your head buried in the neck, then lined isn't *too* bad.
 
#24
kipsus said:
And what about cello?
Click to expand...

I feel that with violins, violas, celli, contrabasses, et al. there's no need for any sort of markers. Not only are they much more conducive to 'using the ear' but your vantage point on the neck is vastly different and more conducive to being able to hit your positions than on a guitar or bass guitar.

Also - since upright and cello are typically found in orchestral settings where your eyes are either supposed to be on your music or the conductor (mostly the conductor), a marked fingerboard would not get looked at much anyway and would really destroy the look of those instruments (IMO).
 
#26
The other problem I see in this discussion is that people assume that once you have a lined fretless you're gonna be looking at the fret board. The looking is the problem, not the lines, one should work on developing intonation by ear. Even with an unlined board one can still find visual guides, a place where the grain pattern changes, maybe a knick in the side of the board, hell I did with the upright. If you spend anytime sight reading, that will get you away from looking at your neck, cause if you look away from the music for a second you'll lose your place. On a gig that'll keep you from getting called back.
 
#27
Every time I hear someone use the "but upright basses are unlined" argument I have to wonder if that person has ever played upright. Upright basses have a neck that joins the body somewhere around D or Eb on the G string. In other words, the neck joins the body around where the 7th or 8th fret would be on a bass guitar. In other words, there are huge physical references for knowing where you are on the fingerboard visually. Bass guitars clearly have the neck join the body much further down the board. Couple that with the much larger scale length on an upright, which means a larger area where you can intonate and be reasonably accurate, and it makes more sense that you don't need lines on an upright. Most bass guitars are of a scale length that will require frequent shifts, but small enough that makes minute inaccuracies noticeable.

Just get the lines. Lines are useful if you need an occasional viual reference. If you get into a spot where you can't hear yourself very well, they can be a godsend. The sole advantage to unlined fretless is aesthetics. If you worry about what a few other bassists think, then consider an unlined. Otherwise get a lined. Some people say they find the lines distracting. Those people need to quit looking at their hands when they play.

Note: the lines aren't 100% accurate, but they are very close. They are a great tool when you need them. Just don't rely on them to be the final say on whether or not you have intonated properly.

My first bass was an unlined fretless acoustic. I've no issues with playing either, but wouldn't ever purchase an unlined again for reasons I've stated above.

PS: No one intonates by ear. They intonate by muscle memory. If you are relying on your ear to let you know when you hit a wrong note, then you've already lost the game. Your ear can only hear notes that've already been played. IOW, everyone else can hear that sour note also.
 
#28
I don't disagree about lines, I do believe that the ear needs to play a huge role in your intonation. Muscle memory will only work as well as the players ear lets it. If you practice shifting from a C up to a G on your index finger, but consistently hit the G slightly flat, your muscles will remember going to the spot where the flat note is. On the other hand, if you're actually working on HEARING the sound of a perfect fifth your muscle memory will be better served by your ear. As was stated before even the lines on the fretless could be slightly inaccurate, hell even fretted basses aren't perfect.

If you aint hearin' it in tune, you aint playin' it in tune.
 
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#31
I learned to play bass on a fretless. I started w/lines and now I just use side dots. Now when I play a lined neck I find it visually cluttered and confusing. I use the side dots as a visual aid by reading the spaces between them - the negative space. The first through 9th fret spots there is 1 note between the dots and from the 9th fret up there are 2 notes between. If you think the correct note is where the line is then you will trust your eyes and not ear and get confused because your finger is saying you are in the right spot but your ear is hearing your out of tune. Whether or not you use dots, lines etc the goal is to play in tune and hear the note vibrate in harmony. You may have to wiggle your finger to get proper intonation but to me that is the beauty of playing fretless.
 
#32
I only play fretlesses with lines and/or dots because it is what works for me. However, I really don't care what anyone else plays, I just care how it sounds and if I enjoy the music.

Pick what works best for you, and don't expect anyone to give you the ultimate answer. It takes experimenation and experience to eventually learn what works best for you. Think of all the time (and $$'s) some of us have spent figuring out what strings, scale length, string spacing, type of pick, pickup configurations, strap, BG brand, BG model, etc. etc. work best for our individual style and physical makeup.
 
#36
Kael said:
PS: No one intonates by ear. They intonate by muscle memory. If you are relying on your ear to let you know when you hit a wrong note, then you've already lost the game. Your ear can only hear notes that've already been played. IOW, everyone else can hear that sour note also.
Click to expand...

I bet you play out of tune quite often.

As you refer to double bass quite often in your post, are you aware of the 2 kinds of shifts you can make? The "Kreisler" (named after Fritz Kreisler) and the "Heifitz" (named after Jascha Heifitz). One of them involves portamento upon leaving a note and the other involves portamento upon arriving on a note. The idea of both shifts is to connect the notes but they are also for intonation purposes.

If you think that the line or dot on your neck is the absolute for pitch reference then you probably have never played in an ensemble setting.
 
#37
kb9wyz said:
Hi all,

For you guys who have learned to play the fretless way I have a simple question:

Would you recommend that I purchase a bass with or without fretlines, and why?

Thanks guys for your advice about this.

Beast
Click to expand...
It's up to you, I guess. Playing in different temperaments might be a bit harder with lines if you're watching your fingers, because you'll naturally want to go to the lines.
 
#40
kb9wyz said:
Hi all,

For you guys who have learned to play the fretless way I have a simple question:

Would you recommend that I purchase a bass with or without fretlines, and why?

Thanks guys for your advice about this.

Beast
Click to expand...

For your first fretless, get unlined. You need to force yourself to use your ears. Going fretless requires a major plastic change in your brain, sense of intonation, and hand/eye coordination, dexterity, fine motor control, etc, and lines damage and *slow* this delicate process.

*After* your ear and positional sense is developed, lined fingerboards are great for playing with excellent intonation on dark stages or in the recording studio when it really counts. Even then, I recommend continuing to practice on an unlined.

It is unrealistic to expect fretless electric players never to look at the neck. Electric necks, even though they have shorter scales than double bass necks, have no positional cues like their big brothers. Just don't fall into the trap of "cheating" instead of developing your ear.

Hope this helps!
 
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