Low Down Sound Cab Club started!

[KJung]

Peter; I don't see any of the 410s you say you're testing against listed in your profile.

I sold my 15/6, but I do have on hand an AE410, UL410, Henry 8x8, LDS4x8, and LDS 2x12+2x6. I had no problems using the 15/6 as I would have used any of my bigger cabs; but, I was also feeding the 15/6 1200 watts.

Yeah, that's the one pisser with the 15/6. So many of us, and especially those of us who are looking for a 'light and loud' alternative, use one of the many 500 watt or so into 4ohm micro or slightly larger SS heads (.... LMII, F1, F500, Shuttle, AG500, Eden405, Thunderfunk550, etc., etc., etc.). These amps all KILL at 4ohms (depending on your tone goals), but not so much at 8ohms. Since most 410's out there are 4ohms, it's hard to do a true A/B with these two very different classes of cab.

I tell you what, two of those small 115's like Ryan's (which would result in 4ohms), with one having a tweeter, would IMO make just about anyone happy in just about any playing situation.

 

[Chef]

yeah...the 8 ohm thing....

the 15/6 made my walkabout useless. the M6 didn't like it either, and normally, that head is hella-loud.
the F1 was....ok, but no more.

wt800b, bridged, was killer. but, big and heavy.

my two mesa diesel 115's, reloaded with 3015s, was a savage rig, "even with the walkabout only pushing 300 watts into 4 ohms."

 

[KJung]

yeah...the 8 ohm thing....

the 15/6 made my walkabout useless. the M6 didn't like it either, and normally, that head is hella-loud.
the F1 was....ok, but no more.

wt800b, bridged, was killer. but, big and heavy.

+1 The Puma1000, and the EpiPS1000 (seems like a theme developing) seem to be the lightweight solutions that would drive the 15/6 to its full potential.

The AEiAmpPro is also a contender if it turns out to be a well designed and reliable unit. I assume that puts out 750 watts or so into 8ohms.

The cool thing is that all three of the above are different flavors of 'smooth, creamy, relatively even' that seem to fit the vibe and voicing of the 15/6 quite nicely. The Puma500 tone was AMAZING with the 15/6's I tried, but it totally was eaten up volume-wise... not even close to enough oomph. But.. the tone! Don was freaking out when he heard that combination.

 

[tmw]

It's been a big week for cab 'testing' for me. Don just brought this beauty over for a quick 'listening' and testing out prior to shipping. I'm not sure who it is going to. It sounds very good... very punchy, with lots of sizzle if you want it from that powerful tweeter.

Anyway, just putting up a picture as an example of how you can do a 410 and get the speakers up a touch closer to the ear, which some guys prefer. There are super duper 3" tilt back castors with a nice top handle, and six heavy duty rubber feet on the bottom. Nice execution. Neo 10's.. about 65 pounds.

That's my Puma500 sitting on top.

Don called me on Monday to say it would be shipping. It should be 36" tall, 18" deep and 23" wide, which was exactly what I wanted in the cab... ANd if you're saying it sounds very good, I am very very pleased. Can't wait! It even looks better than I thought it would.

 

[rpsands]

I feed the 15/6 either 500w @ 8 ohms from an Iamp 800 or 460w or so from a GK 1001 RB II. Either way, it is easily comparable to a 4x10XLT in volume.

My 3080 with the Iamp feeding it 800w /buried/ an SWR 750x into sealed ampeg 8x10. Buried.

 

[Blues Cat]

I hate to be a pain in the but...can't help it.

I've been following all this stuff pretty close for a few months now. I appreciate Don's work and the fEarful design don't get me wrong...

People have built their own 15/6, Don has built a few and Ken gave us a nice review among others. There has been a discussion about which amps may drive this thing to it's full potential, possible a bridged amp at 8 ohms.

What I haven't heard from anyone so far is...I just got done A/Bing my new 15/6 to a UL410 / HS410 / 410XLT (insert 4x10 of choice) and this 15/6 is just burrying it.

So I am still sceptical of those that claim this design will replace a conventional 4x10 cabinet....

I ab'd my 156 with an Epiphani 212 vertical and tme there was way more fundamental with the 156, a fundamental I've only heard from high end PA's with 18's (Apogee).

In comparison the Epi 212 sounded like a mid cab imho, but sounded good with a noticable hump around 300hz that made windows rattle.

At the time of test they were both on the floor w/out casters.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

Yeah, that's the one pisser with the 15/6. So many of us, and especially those of us who are looking for a 'light and loud' alternative, use one of the many 500 watt or so into 4ohm micro or slightly larger SS heads (.... LMII, F1, F500, Shuttle, AG500, Eden405, Thunderfunk550, etc., etc., etc.). These amps all KILL at 4ohms (depending on your tone goals), but not so much at 8ohms. Since most 410's out there are 4ohms, it's hard to do a true A/B with these two very different classes of cab.

I tell you what, two of those small 115's like Ryan's (which would result in 4ohms), with one having a tweeter, would IMO make just about anyone happy in just about any playing situation.

Alex Claber's "The Compact" is very similar to my cabinet, and he recommends feeding it with 100-500 watts. I think 300-500 watts should be substantial. My Hartke LH500 is LOUD, and puts out 350 watts at 8 ohms. I think the voicing of the cab and head will match up very well.

+1, two of these, one with a tweeter and one without, would be a great rig for general purpose (fingerstyle, slap, pickstyle, various genres of music...). That stack would be just over $900 and weight 60 lbs. Quite the deal IMO.

 

[KJung]

Alex Claber's "The Compact" is very similar to my cabinet, and he recommends feeding it with 100-500 watts. I think 300-500 watts should be substantial. My Hartke LH500 is LOUD, and puts out 350 watts at 8 ohms. I think the voicing of the cab and head will match up very well.

+1, two of these, one with a tweeter and one without, would be a great rig for general purpose (fingerstyle, slap, pickstyle, various genres of music...). That stack would be just over $900 and weight 60 lbs. Quite the deal IMO.

+1 I think the cab design you have with the 'non L' woofer gets pumping with less wattage than the bigger box with that deeper tuning, etc. I felt my F500/f1 pushed that cab wonderfully at around 300 watts or whatever.

That 115 design that you have (with a tweeter for those who want the option of making it a little more 'modern' sounding) is a perfect match for the small heads I was talking about above. Having the advantage of adding a second one for larger gigs is a bonus!

 

[peterpalmieri]

Peter; I don't see any of the 410s you say you're testing against listed in your profile...??

Sorry for the confusion I was trying to comment that nobody was giving a direct A/B with those cabinets, not that I did.

So I will ask the question again. Has anybody actually done a direct A/B with a high quality 4x10 and a 15/6 that is properly powered or is everyone still guessing? What I mean is you've hooked up a power amp that can push each of these cabinets to their max and the 15/6 got louder before breaking up then this 4x10. And I am not asking about junk 4x10s but some of the high quality stuff like a Bergantino or Epifani cabinet.

Thanks, Pete

 

[Ryan Mohr]

+1 I think the cab design you have with the 'non L' woofer gets pumping with less wattage than the bigger box with that deeper tuning, etc. I felt my F500/f1 pushed that cab wonderfully at around 300 watts or whatever.

That 115 design that you have (with a tweeter for those who want the option of making it a little more 'modern' sounding) is a perfect match for the small heads I was talking about above. Having the advantage of adding a second one for larger gigs is a bonus!

+1, it seems more practical to use my cab with a micro cab or a standard 500 watt head because it is more sensitive than the LF, which as you said demands a higher wattage head to really open up the head and explore the potential of the 3015LF.

On a side note, Ken if you look at the chart you can see a bump in the 2 kHz "grindy" range, which would explain what you were hearing: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[billhilly66]

Sorry for the confusion I was trying to comment that nobody was giving a direct A/B with those cabinets, not that I did.

So I will ask the question again. Has anybody actually done a direct A/B with a high quality 4x10 and a 15/6 that is properly powered or is everyone still guessing? What I mean is you've hooked up a power amp that can push each of these cabinets to their max and the 15/6 got louder before breaking up then this 4x10. And I am not asking about junk 4x10s but some of the high quality stuff like a Bergantino or Epifani cabinet.

Thanks, Pete

I A/B'd it with an Eden 410
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=570411

 

[KJung]

I A/B'd it with an Eden 410
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=570411

Cool! I forgot about your comparison in that review. Very cool, and great pic's. That's what I would have thought. If you can get enough power into one of these at 8ohms, you are in pretty good shape for any typical '410 sized' gigs.

 

[peterpalmieri]

I A/B'd it with an Eden 410
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=570411

Oh great! Sorry I forgot about that one.

I'm less sceptical thank you....

 

[greenboy]

I get a neck ache watching all this vigorous circular motion stuff and attendant hand wringing I'm always seeing on talkbass ; }


Anyway, the 3015 is only around 1 dB more sensitive than the 3015LF, and if the midrange cone is padded on the high side by about a dB the two are pretty much neck and neck when driven by the same low wattage. But the 3015LF/6ND410 system will exhibit less obvious distortion -which is a near-field loudness cue some might be too attuned to. Also, when you change the tonal footprint it can decieve one what's louder until you do some decent side-by-side testing. Just hearing either at different times and different places won't really give you truth.

3015LF presents a deeper sound than 3015. But neither is tuned to boom (you can always EQ that in).

The real difference is when you put the pedal to the metal. The 3015 runs out of gas before the 3015LF and though it's pretty amenable to EQ it won't shrug off ridiculous boosts in the lows as no big deal because it just can't make as many. The 3015LF/6ND410 can be driven with more and some percieve this when not in a mix as a cab that's not as loud, but as I said before it just doesn't provide the distortion cues until you give it way more watts.

I'd compare either to about a 310 myself - but one that doesn't limit on lows as much - when all are driven by the same wattage.

But when you drive all compared cabs with as much as they can handle I'd compare the 3015 to a 410 probably that doesn't limit on low end as much ... depends on EQ and tonal prefs a little which everybody should realize.

The 3015LF/6ND410 combination being fed what it can actually handle is more like a 610 with an extra bunch of booty added - maybe more than 1/2 octave's worth! And if you biamp, perhaps it can approach 810 output with that same extra bottom but without the upper mids cone cry. And when you drive it hard like that you actually begin to hear some of that breakup auditory cue.

As I've always said, the 3015LF/6ND410(/tweet) combination when implimented correctly can be a chameleon with EQ - it reveals subtle EQ moves in all regions if your ears aren't shot, and it also reveals a lot about heads and preamps inherent voicing. As Ken said, the only thing that stands in the way is finding/developing minis that can fully leverage the potential of this combination... For now it's a handful, until you look into separates with pro power amps and their attendant gain in size and weight. Still, if you haul less cab to do big jobs, the tradeoff isn't so bad.

 

[Chef]

Having had cabs with both 3015 and 3015 LF in them now, here's one noticable difference to me.

The 3015, when pushed, ''breaks up'' and grinds nicely in the ~4khz region. This ''distortion'' is not a bad thing, at least to my ear. It really delivers that old school nickel round grind nicely.
The 15/6 incarnation doesn't...the 3015LF doesn't go up that high, and the 18Sound mid doesn't break up like that.

At least, that's how I hear it.
The 15/6/horn is kinda "reference cab-ish," whereas a 3015+horn would be more rawkish...

YMMV, you probably hear it different than me, etc.

 

[greenboy]

As far as PRO power amps in the mid and upper echelons, my experience when gain structure is proper, they act pretty much like "wire with gain".

But power sections in heads, there seems to be a lot of variability and caveats like how you EQ in how much they deliver. And that's further confused by inherent designed-in default voicing, or by cost design of circuitry, how much power there really is over long term demands.

 

[alexclaber]

+1, it seems more practical to use my cab with a micro cab or a standard 500 watt head because it is more sensitive than the LF, which as you said demands a higher wattage head to really open up the head and explore the potential of the 3015LF.

I wouldn't say that a 3015 is any more sensitive than a correctly implemented 15/6.5 like the Big One - it's less sensitive to the nasties of amp clipping, hence I suggest a higher minimum power figure for the Big One. I used a Shuttle 6.0 with a Big One last night and it goes damned loud, drowning out the rest of my band loud. An amp with similar power but less nice overload characteristics might not perform so well but it'll still go loud.

Remember the days when we used to say you can do almost any gig with 300W and a 4x10"? That's power figure holds true for both the Compact and Big One. If you need more power its because you have an obnoxious guitarist or Animal on the drums. With more power I'd expect the 3015 to match a high quality 4x10", the 3015LF/6.5 a high quality 6x10". I had one customer play a gig where every metal band on the bill bar the headliner opted to use his LH1000/Big One rather than the headliner's Peavey 8x10" rig because it was punchier, fatter and plenty loud enough.

Alex

 

[greenboy]

Having had cabs with both 3015 and 3015 LF in them now, here's one noticable difference to me.

The 3015, when pushed, ''breaks up'' and grinds nicely in the ~4khz region. This ''distortion'' is not a bad thing, at least to my ear. It really delivers that old school nickel round grind nicely. The 15/6 incarnation doesn't...the 3015LF doesn't go up that high, and the 18Sound mid doesn't break up like that.

Yep. Pretty much what I've heard and described. You have to puch the 15/6 combination a lot harder before you begin to hear breakup. The 3015 is ideal for a tigher version of old school, and with a conventional high-passed tweeter section, it's basically going to be a lot like many other better 15/tweet combinations only with less midbass hump (unless that's EQ'd in).

At least, that's how I hear it. The 15/6/horn is kinda "reference cab-ish," whereas a 3015+horn would be more rawkish...

Well, the whole thing about the 15/6 is bring on the power and EQ in whatever tonal profile you think typifies rock - and it rocks. It's more like a blank canvas that takes any kind of paint well, should you choose to apply it. It reveals what you are doing and what your signal is like. I like the 3015LF/6ND410 for overdrive and distortion especially - it gives extra cone-driven top to any distortion that just sounds magnificent! Like adding an octvae above to the old school sound. If your distortion device have EQ you can really get a lot of different shadings.

Add a good tweeter and a waveguide and you have a lot of different "clean tone" possibilities that can sparkle or sizzle or add some extra bite to any snarl you are doing. Can be modern slappers heaven, either on the smooth side or the more raucous.

Eminence really made some significant leaps when they introduced the Kappalite 15 stuff, and the 3012LF seems to be of the same mold (haven't heard the 3012 HO yet, but it's a little different on paper and sims).

 

[greenboy]

I wouldn't say that a 3015 is any more sensitive than a correctly implemented 15/6.5 like the Big One - it's less sensitive to the nasties of amp clipping, hence I suggest a higher minimum power figure for the Big One. I used a Shuttle 6.0 with a Big One last night and it goes damned loud, drowning out the rest of my band loud. An amp with similar power but less nice overload characteristics might not perform so well but it'll still go loud.

Remember the days when we used to say you can do almost any gig with 300W and a 4x10"? That's power figure holds true for both the Compact and Big One. If you need more power its because you have an obnoxious guitarist or Animal on the drums. With more power I'd expect the 3015 to match a high quality 4x10", the 3015LF/6.5 a high quality 6x10". I had one customer play a gig where every metal band on the bill bar the headliner opted to use his LH1000/Big One rather than the headliner's Peavey 8x10" rig because it was punchier, fatter and plenty loud enough.

I usually don't do this, but:

+1.

That's entirely like my experiences with either.

I'd also add that 3015LF is low-tuning and reggae/dub heaven.

 

[Ric Vice]

Hello,
I usually haunt the DB side, but I have to chime in here because I have a custom cabinet that Don built for me. I'll post a picture soon. When EA the EA VL 208's were discontinued I had build a 2x8 that featured two B&C Neo drivers. It's a great cabinet especially if you are going to double on DB and EB. Don even put the controls for the tweeter, and midrange on the side of the cabinet so you can easily access them. Lots of attention to detail, that's typically Don's thing. He even used two different height rubber risers on the bottom of the cabinet to it has tilt upward in the front. Very cool.