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Low Down Sound Cab Club started!
- Thread starter agfrag
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When I got home from work today, I saw the box sitting on my living room floor. The cab was EXTREMELY well packed. The cab really does look beautiful with the tolex/cloth grill/metal corners vintage look. Here's a picture if anyone forgot
My Hartke LH500 was driving this cab. The volume was set at 3 and the tone controls were set at 2-10-0. I was playing my SX alder/RW J bass strung with old DR hi-beams. Upon first impression, the rig was surprisingly articulate, mid present, punchy, and grindy. To be honest, I was expecting (and hoping) the rig would be deeper, fatter, and more old-school sounding. I plugged into my Fender combo to check my ears and it was definitely deeper and smoother. Maybe I just have to break it in?
My Hartke LH500 was driving this cab. The volume was set at 3 and the tone controls were set at 2-10-0. I was playing my SX alder/RW J bass strung with old DR hi-beams. Upon first impression, the rig was surprisingly articulate, mid present, punchy, and grindy. To be honest, I was expecting (and hoping) the rig would be deeper, fatter, and more old-school sounding. I plugged into my Fender combo to check my ears and it was definitely deeper and smoother. Maybe I just have to break it in?
Chef
In Memoriam
add bass at the amp, trim mids a bit, and roll tone off at the bass.
the 3015 has a lot of top end content.
the 3015 has a lot of top end content.
I just tried running the amp from my Fender Bassman 150 combo into the LDS 115, and the tone was very similar to the tone with the LH500. When I plugged into the Fender combo without the LDS 115, the tone was MUCH deeper, fatter, and smoother. I'm not having a problem with the top end content. On the contrary, I really dig the high mids and highs. My problem is with the shy low end. Don did say it needs time to break in, but Ken's soundclips sounds really fat. I did try adding bass on the amp with no success.
alexclaber
Commercial User
Your combo probably has more mid-bass boom and is less strong through the upper mids. The 3015 will loosen up a bit as well. I tend to always add some bass boost with the Compact and that's cab alignment has more bottom anyway. Turn the LH500 up some more, crank up those lows and your combo will be left behind on all fronts! 
Alex
Alex
That's going to be one issue with the preamp design with fender style stacks. What you're missing is low mids/upper bass, which your speaker is not biased toward (because it's fairly flat on the low end, e.g. "smooth").
If you have the ability to get a parametric eq or even a 4/5-band amp to test out, I would recommend turning up the low mids around 120-180hz.
Edit: You could also try turning the bass /way/ up, like 7-ish.
Edit 2: And another possible solution is to scoop a lot of the "mid mids" out on the amp - turn the mids to maybe 5, and turn the bass up a bit to maybe 4. So like 4/5/2-ish, or 4/5/0.
Then turn the amp waaaay up.
If you have the ability to get a parametric eq or even a 4/5-band amp to test out, I would recommend turning up the low mids around 120-180hz.
Edit: You could also try turning the bass /way/ up, like 7-ish.
Edit 2: And another possible solution is to scoop a lot of the "mid mids" out on the amp - turn the mids to maybe 5, and turn the bass up a bit to maybe 4. So like 4/5/2-ish, or 4/5/0.
Then turn the amp waaaay up.
alexclaber
Commercial User
Now that really is over-complicating things! That tonestack plus two pickups, a tone knob and YOUR HANDS should be more than enough 'EQ'. Changing where you pluck the string is the biggest tone control of all.
Alex
Eh, trying it out with an easier to eq amp would be a lot easier diagnostically
Or if he has a graphic eq pedal or something. It's a lot more scientific too since he'll figure out exactly what he wants in tone. I don't see any way to force a 180hz 1/2 octave bump with that setup. Obviously moving your hand around will change the tone but it's not exactly precise.
If getting to like the cabinet means playing in an uncomfortable position or changing your plucking style, that could be a deal breaker, but running a graphic eq pedal you can get used for 35 bucks might not be.
Hey Ryan,
From my experience with that head, you should be fine. I had never heard one of these cabs or a cab with that 3015 in it, and I have to say, I was quite shocked (in a good way for me anyway) at how grindy, bright, and aggressive that woofer is. However, it had PLENTY of low end mojo also. I think the upper mid presence can get a little 'overbalanced' if you are looking for old school. A little EQ with the treble control on that amp, and also a bit of time for your ears to adjust to all that 'articulation' and I think you will dig it.
Also remember, on gigs, the issue is usually too much low end and not enough articulation (IME). A rig that sounds a bit 'tight and bright' in the living room usually results in 'even and punchy' on the gig.
It is a grinder though, but with your basses and that fat but clean amp, it 'should' work great. Play it a while and let your ears get used to it. I think you will dig it.
alexclaber
Commercial User
Well I see your point but too many bassists seem to think tone comes from their gear as opposed to how they play their gear! If an amp and cab have reasonably even response, as the LH500/3015 do, then your hands really should be able to do the talking. Leave the tweaksy EQing for when you're mixing in the studio and trying to get everything just so.
Just speaking from years of being too damned lazy to plug in when practising plus a (now departed) purist belief in EQ being bad (yes, I was wrong) having got my fingers very good at finding tone! You might not agree but BP mag liked it and gave me a pedal when they printed my thoughts on the subject.
Alex
Definitely less strong through the upper mids, and you are probably right about the mid-bass, but I feel like the Fender combo is deeper and fatter. I'm running either 2-10-0 and 6-8-4; both of these settings leave me feeling a little shy on the "fatness."Your combo probably has more mid-bass boom and is less strong through the upper mids. The 3015 will loosen up a bit as well. I tend to always add some bass boost with the Compact and that's cab alignment has more bottom anyway. Turn the LH500 up some more, crank up those lows and your combo will be left behind on all fronts!
Alex
Also, when I play sitting on the ground I'm not missing much fatness but when I sit in a chair I am certainly missing it. With the Fender combo, I feel the same amount of fatness regardless of playing position. In all cases I'm about 5 feet from my rig.
Is the Fender tonestack known for not having a lot of low mids? Even at the 2-10-0 setting? I feel like I have decent low mids, but maybe it's more of the mid mid presence as you say, and not the 150 Hz fatness.
Thanks for the opinion Ken. I guess I was expecting the rig to sound "super warm, fat, and old school" but it really does have a lot of upper mid articulation and a tight bottom that will probably fatten in time.
I just jammed with my brother on drums, and the rig did sound great. as you said "tight and articulate" translates to a great tone on the gig, but in general I like more fatness than I'm hearing. Maybe I just need to play it more.
The fender tone stack doesn't let you dial in a specific bump at 120-180 hz that gets you "vintage old school tone." At least that is how I dial it in (1/2 octave +6-10db @ 180hz) normally if I want that sound. Edit: I think the reason for this is that "old school" bass speakers in tiny enclosures do this naturally so there's no need for it.
You kinda have to sculpt around it to make it peak there by cutting some mids and boosting the bass and then turning up to compensate for the loss in mid volume.
I think you should see if you can borrow a GEB-7 or some other more precise EQ method and try to dial in your warm tones and get more of a feel for what you feel that vintage is. The 3015 is so smooth in the low end naturally but it's also capable of a great deal of response to eq down there like Alex said.
Then you can go look at the response of the fender tone stack (there are a lot of graphs of it out there at various settings I believe) combined with the settings on your bass to try to get what you want.
Just this man's opinion though...I would lay money down that the tone as is will grow on you a lot too. Ears get acclimated to tone sometimes.
You kinda have to sculpt around it to make it peak there by cutting some mids and boosting the bass and then turning up to compensate for the loss in mid volume.
I think you should see if you can borrow a GEB-7 or some other more precise EQ method and try to dial in your warm tones and get more of a feel for what you feel that vintage is. The 3015 is so smooth in the low end naturally but it's also capable of a great deal of response to eq down there like Alex said.
Then you can go look at the response of the fender tone stack (there are a lot of graphs of it out there at various settings I believe) combined with the settings on your bass to try to get what you want.
Just this man's opinion though...I would lay money down that the tone as is will grow on you a lot too. Ears get acclimated to tone sometimes.
+1 on all points. That "vintage old school tone" is EXACTLY the "tone in my head." I normally dial in a 6 dB boost at 150 Hz on my Fender combo.
When I ran the Fender head into the LDS 115 earlier, I had the head set flat. I was curious, so I ran that 6 dB boost at 150 Hz and I got a great tone. The smoothness was filled in by a thick old school low mid presence. Not as fat down low as the speaker in my combo, but a tone with which I am more comfortable. This was my first amp and I have been playing through it for 2 years so my ears are accustomed to that exact sound.
I'm definitely gonna mess around with EQ settings on the LH500. It's a GREAT head for $350, and has a great clean warm tubey tone. It has so much more volume and headroom than the head in the Fender combo.
I just thought of something: Ken was playing through the F500, which from what he has said has a nice low mid presence. Maybe that's why I dug the sound in the clip so much.
- Dec 18, 2000
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There's that issue of poor off-axis response again. A cab that sounds both "bassy" and present in the upper mids when you are standing in the near field, will often just sound boomy and indistinct in the far field. A lot of that has to do with its off-axis performance... Having better off-axis response allows one to get a closer approximation of the near field mix out there in the far field without sacrifing low end and without that "boomy perception".
The other approach is to continue to use cab designs with poor off axis response, but to roll off a lot of bass - or to design cabs that are not all that big down below 100 Hz in the first place, often called "tight bass" by some and "lacking nards" by others ; }. In either of these cases, you still don't end up with the benefits of having more even sound throughout a room that better off-axis response can impart.
I've found since I started pursuing off-axis response improvements (baffle placement, smaller midrange source) that reach into the upper midrange and lower treble that I've had to worry a LOT less about articulation, EQing for a room - any room - or being heard on stage, or weird band mixes out front.
Of course much of this post is about smaller and mid sized venues where PA support is not always all the way there, sometimes not there at all, but it also applies to larger stages...
Ken, I spent a little time testing/comparing gear at 4Mal's place a few weeks back and got to hear a couple of cabs with single 3015 drivers. These were single 15 cabs and I was kinda surprised at how laid-back, almost mellow the 3015 sounded. Grindy would be the last thing I would use to describe the tone I heard. I brought out a cab loaded with an EVM-15B and by comparison, the EV was far edgier, grindier in the upper mids & highs. For my taste, the 3015 sounded kinda tame in comparison. Where I did feel the 3015 clearly excelled was in it's bass extension/weight. That and the fact that I wouldn't be afraid to hit it with more power.
Ryan, if you're up for it, how about (temporarily) swapping the 3015 with the driver in your Fender cab? The results will give you (and us) some useful info about the particular tuning of the two enclosures. Maybe you just dig the tuning of the Fender cab better.
And I own a LH500 and feel it's eq is less bloomy and less interactive than the Fender tone stack. It's supposedly the same style eq circuit, but the Hartke is tighter on the bottom, to my ears anyway. That's not necessarily a bad thing, my Alembic FX-1 was a bit looser on the bottom than I preferred.
I have a clip posted earlier in this thread using an uber clean, transparent amp (Markbass F500 set flat), and it was as grindy as any cab I've ever heard (due to what I perceive as a bit of a bump in the upper mids). Also, Ryan posted the frequency distribution of that speaker a few posts back, and there is a LOT going on way up top (although Alex pointed out that the plot is not based on anything close to the TL box performance). I believe Chef found this also. The 3015L with that mid driver is very clean and 'polite' up top inherently, but man, I've never heard anything grind so much as that single 3015. I have no idea if the relatively small enclosure has anything to do with that. However, there was plenty of low end to my ear.
Also, when I heard one of the 15/6's with the 3015 (nonL) that was crossed over (i.e., not running full range), it sounded very full and deep and 'more typical 15', since I assume that 800hz crossover removed all that aggressive upper mid response from the voicing of that speaker.
I again liked the tone of Ryan's box a lot. I assume that upper mid brightness can be EQ'd out, but I guess you'd have to have some pretty good control in that 1K region, and not every head has that.
I again have never had much issue with this with any box I've used, but I sure have heard a lot of muddy bassists in the audience, and that seems relatively unrelated to backline design or front of house support or not. A lot of this is 'in the fingers' and also based on some strange EQ choices by some.
Based on my regular GTG attendance, and all the guys coming through my house checking out rigs, etc., there are a LOT of bassists out there who are not sending a clean, fullrange strong tone to their rig, due to weak or sloppy technique, strange on-board EQ choices (i.e., CRANKING onboard pre bass controls, etc.). IMO and IME.
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