Low Down Sound Cab Club started!

[KJung]

I knew it ! I knew it!

Welcome back, Ken. And thanks for another valuable report (despite your flawed perspective).

I'm not back...this is a one-off since I promised to review this one a while back. I'll be doing an LDS review every once in a while, so you will see me around on occasion. Just need to take a rest from this place

I will be back in a couple of weeks with a review of a new 2 x 8 / 6 design Don is excited about, with some Faital 8" neo's that have amazing specs (according to Don... all that stuff is a little over my head!).

Happy Holidays everyone!

 

[coolrunner989]

Thanks for allowing me to try it. I might be getting one of these. My little recorder doesn't do the low end justice. It really slams, and it sounded good with every head we tried it with (TC RH450, LMII, F1, and the wonderful Puma500, which continues to be my and Don's favorite with these particular box designs).

Enjoy... post up when you get it. I think Don said he was shipping this afternoon, but not sure.

From the second I decided to have this cab built from Don I was looking forward to having your opinion on it at the end. I'm on the young/inexperienced gear-wise end of bass playing and it's always nice for me to have a second opinion, especially yours. I'm glad you and Don enjoy it too

I thought the recording was pretty good, no worries there. I wont be able to record it when I get it except with my webcam mic, but I'll post my thoughts on it for sure. Hopefully sometime soon I can take it to rehearsal and let it get loud

 

[Markus Bender]

Hey Ken,

how's the lowend compared to an Epifani UL410?
How's the LDSs lowend versus punch?

This may be the perfect cab for me, but I'm a little worried about boomyness in some venues...
I will pair it with my F1

The cab EASILY puts out the low end and volume and force of a good 410. The voicing is deep, and it gave NOTHING up when slapped... no compressing, no distortion at all. This cab goes WAY lower than my little Tecamp cab, and the overall SPL was noticably louder.

...Killer, and IMO all the low end anyone would want. It isn't that super deep extension of the Acme's, which I hate personally, but a good solid 45hz or whatever (with what sounds like a nice gentle roll-off below that...so very full and deep even on the open B compared to the TecAmp or Berg cab) that sounds nice and full and round and deep, BUT which punches and hits you in the chest also.

 

[KJung]

Hey Ken,

how's the lowend compared to an Epifani UL410?
How's the LDSs lowend versus punch?

This may be the perfect cab for me, but I'm a little worried about boomyness in some venues...
I will pair it with my F1

I have my 410UL in another location, but it does seem to be a 'different' low end. Hard to describe... tighter but bigger all at the same time (more 'round'.. fuller... just as deep or deeper, but more even low mid punch IMO). I felt this cab could easily keep up with the 410UL in usable low end. The main difference to my ear is in the upper mids, where even the smooth, wide 410UL can be made to grind a bit when really pushed. The 212/6 is VERY smooth and clean and pure through its entire range. It is more, to my ear, like a better execution of an Accugroove (like a Whappo Jr. with more punch and more brightness up top) or Acme (tighter, punchier low end, and much more articulation up top, but still that sort of 'PA cab' vibe).

It's a different sound than any 410... more 'Anthony Jackson' than Marcus Miller, if that makes any sense.

 

[KJung]

There was something funky going on with the site regarding posting pictures yesterday when I posted. Here's a shot of the 212/6/1 cab, next to my TecAmp s212, which is about the size of a typical 210 cab (i.e., it's a very small 212).

 

[tombowlus]

Thanks for posting all this, Ken. That 212/6/1 really looks like a winner!

 

[peterpalmieri]

Thanks for the review Ken and I am really digging Don's work, it's a unique business he's got going...

But here is the disconnect, without calling out specific names, some of the more energetic fEarful followers claim that you're generally getting a lighter, smaller, louder product then you are getting with a high quality 4x10 cabinet AND that these cabinets can have the grind and punch of a modern 4x10.

Your review seems to be saying it's heavier then the 55lb to 62lb neo 4x10 cabinets, in terms of size and volume output it's a push at best and doesn't grind like a 4x10. Now I understand this might be exactly what many people are looking for and will work perfectly for their particular situation. I do however continue to shake my head at the guys who insist that these are 4x10 killers.

That's at least what I'm taking away from the sound clip and Ken's follow up comments.

 

[bassplayer7770]

Thanks for the review Ken and I am really digging Don's work, it's a unique business he's got going...

But here is the disconnect, without calling out specific names, some of the more energetic fEarful followers claim that you're generally getting a lighter, smaller, louder product then you are getting with a high quality 4x10 cabinet AND that these cabinets can have the grind and punch of a modern 4x10.

Your review seems to be saying it's heavier then the 55lb to 62lb neo 4x10 cabinets, in terms of size and volume output it's a push at best and doesn't grind like a 4x10. Now I understand this might be exactly what many people are looking for and will work perfectly for their particular situation. I do however continue to shake my head at the guys who insist that these are 4x10 killers.

That's at least what I'm taking away from the sound clip and Ken's follow up comments.

Then have Don build you a 410!

 

[peterpalmieri]

Then have Don build you a 410!

Either you missed my point or you are being cute.

I've followed the fEarful thread pretty closely and it has been a very interesting learning experience for me and don't get me wrong I admire Greenboy's efforts and others who have built to his plans.

But one of the big claims is that the 15/6/1 will be louder, lighter, smaller and can reproduce the tone of a modern 4x10. It's also a fair assesment that the 1212/6 is louder then the 15/6. It is commonly stated that either of these cabinets are not only louder then a conventional 4x10 but also a 6x10 and will easily compete with a 8x10 and some have suggested it will excede that as well. This has all been in theory and based on the design concepts. All I'm saying is that none of Ken's reviews support any of these claims.

While I'm not planning on ordering a 4x10 from Don I may infact pick up a neo 4x10 of some kind. I was hoping that the claims made would pan out and I could order a 15/6/1 from Don and it would fall in the mid 40lb range, put out more volume then a modern 4x10 and get that grind I am looking for. Based on what I'm reading I am less convinced.

These still sound like they are great designs if they meet your tonal goal it just seem to line up with what I'm all about...

 

[KJung]

Thanks for the review Ken and I am really digging Don's work, it's a unique business he's got going...

But here is the disconnect, without calling out specific names, some of the more energetic fEarful followers claim that you're generally getting a lighter, smaller, louder product then you are getting with a high quality 4x10 cabinet AND that these cabinets can have the grind and punch of a modern 4x10.

Your review seems to be saying it's heavier then the 55lb to 62lb neo 4x10 cabinets, in terms of size and volume output it's a push at best and doesn't grind like a 4x10. Now I understand this might be exactly what many people are looking for and will work perfectly for their particular situation. I do however continue to shake my head at the guys who insist that these are 4x10 killers.

That's at least what I'm taking away from the sound clip and Ken's follow up comments.

Hey Peter.

Here's my take on your points above:

1) Size and weight. I think most of the comments about these cabs being much smaller and lighter than a 410 with the same 'ooomph' involves the 15/6's. That's a much smaller and lighter box, and if you have the power at 8ohms to really push that design, it will keep up with a 410. The 212 is a much larger and more expensive box (the individual 12LF's actually cost a touch more than the 15LF's, according to Don). IMO, the only reason to get the 212 version of this box is if you have can't generate the power you need to get the 8ohm 15/6 to very loud levels.

2) Tone... I believe the guys talking about getting grit and grind with these types of cabs are talking about external effects (pedals, etc.). There is a certain logic to having a very pure box with very little distortion in the midrange, and then adding any 'dirt or character' electronically. Quite frankly, that's not my thing (like playing with a guitarist with a solid state amp and pedals versus a nice old Fender cranked up... it ain't the same thing). The upper midrange of the 4 or 5 of these types of cabs I've now had the pleasure to play is very clean and pure (from a speaker designer perspective, that's a good thing). I am one who continues to like to get a little bit of 'character' from the upper end of a driver pushed hard. You can really hear this kind of tone in the 'non LF 115 one way box' that I put clips up of a while back... it's a growly, snarly beast, and I like that myself.

So, volume-wise, the 15/6 'Greenboy' (if you can get a nice 500 or so watts into it at 8ohms) is the 'smaller, lighter' alternative. The 212/6/1 is about the same size and weight as a lightweight neo 410 (remember, the cab I just reviewed had lot's of stuff... spray on coating, built in castors, metal grill, etc., which adds 10 or 15 pounds versus the tolex/cloth grill/strap handle with no wheels model). Given equal wattage, the 15/6 and the 212/6 should put out similar volume (I think). The problem is that since one is 8ohm and one is 4ohm, it's an apples to oranges thing. So, my simple rule is, for pounding volume gigs, plan on 500 watts into either of these cabs and you would be fine. If you are using a small micro head that is 300 into 8ohms and 500 into 4ohms, that means you would do better with the 212 than the 115, all other things being equal.

Tonewise, IMO and IME, these are not 410 replacements. They are a different beast...smoother, cleaner, wider, purer. That's not a bad thing at all IMO, depending on your tone goals.

IMO!

 

[KJung]

I was hoping that the claims made would pan out and I could order a 15/6/1 from Don and it would fall in the mid 40lb range, put out more volume then a modern 4x10 and get that grind I am looking for. with what

Per the above... if you can get the same wattage into the 8ohm 15/6/tweeter as you can into the typical 4ohm 410, then it will put out as much sound, it will be in the mid 40 pound range and be relatively small, but IME it will not be a grinder... more studio monitor pure, based on my experience so far.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Per the above... if you can get the same wattage into the 8ohm 15/6/tweeter as you can into the typical 4ohm 410, then it will put out as much sound, it will be in the mid 40 pound range and be relatively small, but IME it will not be a grinder... more studio monitor pure, based on my experience so far.

Thanks for clarifying....

I went back and listened again to the LDS 15HO "Ryan Mohrs" cabinet and it seems to have the tone and at 30 lbs. a stack of two might be the killer ticket.

 

[bassplayer7770]

Either you missed my point or you are being cute.

While I'm not planning on ordering a 4x10 from Don I may infact pick up a neo 4x10 of some kind. I was hoping that the claims made would pan out and I could order a 15/6/1 from Don and it would fall in the mid 40lb range, put out more volume then a modern 4x10 and get that grind I am looking for. Based on what I'm reading I am less convinced.

I thought the and gave it away that I was mostly joking.

Now, I had a 4 ohm Avatar B410 NEO when I got my 8 ohm LDS 15/6.5. I compared both cabs side-by-side using my Peavey ProBass 500 head. I kept the amp settings the same and simply went back and forth connecting the two cabs.

I felt the 15/6.5 had more apparent volume and more clarity. I also felt the 15/6.5 had a better full-range response (I didn't like using the tweeter on the Avatar). The lows were thicker and more present, and the highs were less brittle and more ideal to my ears. Overall, I much preferred the LDS, and I sold the Avatar. Take that comparison fwiw to you.

 

[KJung]

Thanks for clarifying....

I went back and listened again to the LDS 15HO "Ryan Mohrs" cabinet and it seems to have the tone and at 30 lbs. a stack of two might be the killer ticket.

That cab was SMOKING if, again, you like some of that neo paper cone upper mid response (which I love, and others not so much). I loved Ryan's cab. I think having it tuned a little lower would actually smooth it out just a touch, if I remember what the EE's posted about it, so you might want to check with Alexclaber (his single 15 cab is very similar and uses the same 3015 'non LF' driver) or Greenboy (who was nice enough to put up some plots of that cab with various tunings).

It's a great little box. Two of them, one with a small tweeter, would be pretty killer IMO.

 

[fretno]

I'm dreaming up a Mini AF1 (bagend) 1x10 , 1x8 3way with roll back . day dreams....

 

[rpsands]

With enough wattage, the 15/6 will be approximately as loud as your average 6x10 before crapping out. The 212/6 will be about as loud as your average 8x10 before crapping the bed.

Another thing to bear in mind is that the number of 4x10s weighing in under 70lbs you can count on one hand. There are still a number of production 4x10s up in the 100lb range.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

My LDS 15/6 is so loud with 725 watts that you have to turn it down to hear the band.

 

[greenboy]

But here is the disconnect, without calling out specific names, some of the more energetic fEarful followers claim that you're generally getting a lighter, smaller, louder product then you are getting with a high quality 4x10 cabinet AND that these cabinets can have the grind and punch of a modern 4x10.

Your review seems to be saying it's heavier then the 55lb to 62lb neo 4x10 cabinets, in terms of size and volume output it's a push at best and doesn't grind like a 4x10. Now I understand this might be exactly what many people are looking for and will work perfectly for their particular situation. I do however continue to shake my head at the guys who insist that these are 4x10 killers.

That's at least what I'm taking away from the sound clip and Ken's follow up comments.

I don't see a fEarful there. Usually what I see is a lot of people who don't get a lot of the design concepts doing something that has a casual resemblance, but beyond what drivers to use a lot of the other stuff whizzes right by. And any deeper analysis or discussion somehow get chumped down to "410 killer".

Somehow my statements like "given sufficient power, can make more broadband SPL with less distortion than (whatever) cab" into: "claims that it's a 410 killer". Well, that sure didn't come from me. I don't consider that it should have to sound like a 410 in every clip someone might make, and a clip sure isn't going to indicate that much about its true nature anyway. Nor is a few hours with one maybe, unless maybe it's at a problematic gig. For some it might hit them like a sledgehammer, for others it may be about acclimatization. Or they can just not get it.

I consider a lot of other qualities in fEarful performance and design just as important as, uh, its apparent ability to be argued about and spun off into unrelated designs that make money for someone who's not me. But there are plenty of choices out there, once all the internet nuttery is dispensed with. I'm just happy I have cabs that satisfy me - both as a player and a listener - in a way nothing else out there has.

So I don't get the "410 killer" bit. But as far as SPL it's real simple. Even without the mid-driver and a properly voiced crossover, a 1212/6 is as sensitive as a typical efficient 310, and probably a few 410s in the range above 100 Hz. But due to its greater sensitivity at the low end, and its greater displacement limited power handling, it can keep on handling what even a 610 might balk at. If you have the power. Add in a proper crossover and a screamin' mid driver and it can do that higher up as well, and sound as aggressive as all hell.

But it's not voiced like a 410. Unless one EQ's it that way. It can be voiced a lot or other ways too. It isn't as limited to being only "one way". It's a lot more revealing about even subtle EQ changes over a broader swath of frequencies.

I like to grind. Actually I like to sound nasty a lot of the time. i often play music that should be that way. I think Ken's predispositions and limited time with this stuff keeps him from turning the distortion to 11, or instead, cranking a few frequencies and killing a few others and seeing how truly good these cabs are at doing a lot of different tonal profiles well. That's cool, but don't think it can't get STANK and CRANK. It takes a lot of clips to touch more bases.

Now another point. If the driver placements on the baffle, and the crossover allow - designs of the fEarful type done right are way better at filling a room evenly. Less likely to "mud up" even though one might be demanding scads of low end. Frankly I care about this as much as the incredibly limited one-position bass player perspective, because I know a lot of people don't always get PA support. I want them to sound as good as possible to the audience, and for the band mix not to get so trashed either on stage or out there in the room.

Anyway. This is a 60.4 pound fEarful with tiltback wheels and handle. Add a good waveguide and compression driver and a beefy highpass crossover for them and you maybe add 4 pounds. It's got enough venting to not wander in tuning when a megawatts is driven hard to it, and not make chuffies if there's reggaedom kingdom comin' on.

 

[bassplayer7770]

My LDS 15/6 is so loud with 725 watts that you have to turn it down to hear the band.

According to specs, my amp pushes 800 watts bridged into 8 ohms. Since I replaced my cracked 6ND410, I've yet to get my cab to "fart out". I can't imagine needing any more clean volume than this setup can give me.

 

[KJung]

I don't see a fEarful there. Usually what I see is a lot of people who don't get a lot of the design concepts doing something that has a casual resemblance, but beyond what drivers to use a lot of the other stuff whizzes right by. And any deeper analysis or discussion somehow get chumped down to "410 killer".

Somehow my statements like "given sufficient power, can make more broadband SPL with less distortion than (whatever) cab" into: "claims that it's a 410 killer". Well, that sure didn't come from me. I don't consider that it should have to sound like a 410 in every clip someone might make, and a clip sure isn't going to indicate that much about its true nature anyway. Nor is a few hours with one maybe, unless maybe it's at a problematic gig. For some it might hit them like a sledgehammer, for others it may be about acclimatization. Or they can just not get it.

I consider a lot of other qualities in fEarful performance and design just as important as, uh, its apparent ability to be argued about and spun off into unrelated designs that make money for someone not me. But there are plenty of choices out there once all the internet nuttery is dispensed with. I'm just happy I have cabs that satisfy me - both as a player and a listener - in a way nothing else out there has.

So I don't get the "410 killer" bit. But as far as SPL it's real simple. Even without the mid-driver and a properly voiced crossover, a 1212/6 is as sensitive as a typical efficient 310, and probably a few 410s in the range above 100 Hz. But due to its greater sensitivity at the low end, and its greater displacement limited power handling, it can keep on handling what even a 610 might balk at. If you have the power. Add in a proper crossover and a sreamin' mid driver and it can do that higher up as well, and sound as agressive as all hell.

But it's not voiced like a 410. Unless one EQ's it that way. It can be voiced a lot or other ways too. It isn't as limited to being only "one way". It's a lot more revealing about even subtle EQ changes over a broader swath of frequencies.

I like to grind. Actually I like to sound nasty a lot of the time. i often play music that should be that way. I think Ken's predispositions and limited time with this stuff keeps him from turning the distortion to 11, or instead, cranking a few frequencies and killing a few others and seeing how truly good these cabs are at doing a lot of different tonal profiles well. That's cool, but don't think it can't get STANK and CRANK.

Now another point. If the driver placements on the baffle, and the crossover allow - designs of the fEarful type done right are way better at filling a room evenly. Less likely to "mud up" even though one might be demanding scads of low end. Frankly I care about this as much as the incredibly limited one-position bass player perspective, because I know a lot of people don't always get PA support. I want them to sound as good as possible to the audience, and for the band mix not to get so trashed either on stage or out there in the room.

Anyway. This is a 60.4 pound fEarful with tiltback wheels and handle. Add a good waveguide and compression driver and a beefy highpass crossover for them and you maybe add 4 pounds. It's got enough venting to not wander in tuning when a megawatts is driven hard to it, and not make chuffies if there's reggaedom kingdom comin' on.

+1 to most of the above, although I'm still not sure how you could EQ that amazing 18sound mid driver to sound like the top end of a 3015 non LF Seems like totally different beasts to me, not better or worse, but quite different, which IMO is a good thing.

Regarding weight, an LDS 212/6 with Tolex is 55 pounds, so not bad at all. However, if you add the thick spray on coating, a metal grill, a two way crossover and tweeter, and 3" castors and three heavy duty handles, it will add about 12 pounds or so. So, even the 212's can be quite lightweight if you don't do the bells and whistles and use the expensive 3/4" lighweight wood, or 1/2" wood.

I think the '410 killer' comments are based on the fact that this cabinet configuration is used by SO many of us as our 'large gig cab', and has been that way for years. So, it's not so much about being a '410 killer' as (I'm guessing) more of a 'point of reference' to ask 'can these cabs cover gigs that 410's can?'. So far, from my limited trials, the answer is definitely yes, given apples to apples wattage IME.