Mesa Subway D-800+

[Alphaman]

I'd hate to be misunderstood, so here's where I stand on this.

1. I think Mesa builds very high-quality amps. That is their well-deserved reputation.

2. I own two of their amps and like them.

3. I'm not in such a snit that I'm going to pull the old, "I'll never buy Mesa again" thing. The contrary is more likely.

4. I'm a capitalist - I understand the profit motive. So from that perspective I don't blame Mesa management for doing what they think will serve their shareholders best.

5. I have no ill will toward Andy or Mesa.

6. Bottom line, I said what I said, and I am disappointed that both amps weren't released at the same time so we could choose between the two. I would've been thrilled to pay the extra $100 for the additional features.

It's like paying another $800 for a new Iphone with just a better camera and I don't even like taking selfies! We've all been bit by how fast technology changes. I'm sure Apple holds and plans their releases to not give you everything in 1 year. They save some thunder for the next release to keep folks in the store buying!

 

[StayLow]

Technology changes rapidly, but there is absolutely zero new tech in the + vs. the 800 so that's a moot point.

 

[Al Kraft]

Technology changes rapidly, but there is absolutely zero new tech in the + vs. the 800 so that's a moot point.

Sometimes "flexibility and features" seal the deal and sometimes "clean simplicity" is what makes the sale. I own the original and am still wondering which I would have picked if they had both been available simultaneously.

Repackaging/integrating proven tech and offering enhanced flexibility is what I see as the attraction on the +. I still think many will find the simplicity of the original attractive enough that they will buy it (or keep it). I do like that HPF though!

 

[Munjibunga]

My Galaxy S5 is several years old and does everything I want it to do. I'll get a new one when this one dies.

 

[agedhorse]

I'd hate to be misunderstood, so here's where I stand on this.

6. Bottom line, I said what I said, and I am disappointed that both amps weren't released at the same time so we could choose between the two. I would've been thrilled to pay the extra $100 for the additional features.

I think that what is being misunderstood is how much effort it takes to design, safety/EMC agency certification, manufacture and release any new product, and to do so smoothly, efficiently, and with high reliability and support. Don't forget that Mesa is also releasing new products in the electric guitar world, and that takes a lot of effort as well. Mesa also has the policy of introducing only what they can actually ship in production quantities. It may seem like some other companies are introducing a lot of new product, but it may take them a year or more to bring to market (if ever).

To put things in perspective, within a period of one year, Mesa has introduced AND SHIPPED 6 brand new bass products (Subway D-800, D-800+, 115, 112, 210 and Subway Preamp-DI). In fact, this represents a new product every 2 months, a lot of development and production support work to do in between all of the new electric guitar products.

Players indicated that the D-800 would be overwhelmingly more popular than the plus because of the size, weight and straight forward nature of the user interface. I happen to agree with them, though there are most certainly players who would prefer the plus without hesitation. Therefore, once we had the capacity to not just announce or introduce the new model, but to do so in (real) production quantities, we did exactly this.

I hope this helps clarify why the models got introduced when they did, it was not done to offend you or any other player who might have preferred the plus model.

 

[Munjibunga]

It appears that I am not alone in this

Which brings up another feature of the Subway amp... it will never need an OS update, never need a firmware update, never need a software update, there is no microprocessor to crash & burn, and it will never phone home to the Microsoft mother ship!

... ouch, ouch, ouch ...

So does that mean we can look for a future hardware update (like a semi-parametric mid), obsoleting our amps?

Interesting - I posted this almost exactly one year ago. (This is from the Subway D800 thread.)

 

[StayLow]

@Munjibunga on fire today with the retorts!

Nothing like good exchanges in which both sides make great points. And keep it civil. Kudos.

 

[Lowendtech]

I think that what is being misunderstood is how much effort it takes to design, safety/EMC agency certification, manufacture and release any new product, and to do so smoothly, efficiently, and with high reliability and support. Don't forget that Mesa is also releasing new products in the electric guitar world, and that takes a lot of effort as well. Mesa also has the policy of introducing only what they can actually ship in production quantities. It may seem like some other companies are introducing a lot of new product, but it may take them a year or more to bring to market (if ever).

To put things in perspective, within a period of one year, Mesa has introduced AND SHIPPED 6 brand new bass products (Subway D-800, D-800+, 115, 112, 210 and Subway Preamp-DI). In fact, this represents a new product every 2 months, a lot of development and production support work to do in between all of the new electric guitar products.

Players indicated that the D-800 would be overwhelmingly more popular than the plus because of the size, weight and straight forward nature of the user interface. I happen to agree with them, though there are most certainly players who would prefer the plus without hesitation. Therefore, once we had the capacity to not just announce or introduce the new model, but to do so in (real) production quantities, we did exactly this.

I hope this helps clarify why the models got introduced when they did, it was not done to offend you or any other player who might have preferred the plus model.

I've been biting my tongue in responding today. Tried several times but couldn't get it done with grace.
Thanks Andy, for this and all the work you and Mesa do, and the help you provide here as well. It is much appreciated.
This should be a stickey.

 

[agedhorse]

Interesting - I posted this almost exactly one year ago. (This is from the Subway D800 thread.)

Correct, and it does not obsolete the original amp which has a different feature set (including size) that some players prefer over other features. There is nothing on the original amp that does not remain fully functional and exactly the same as when it was introduced.

Most players buy an amp based on what it is capable of (including it's size) when they buy it. If their needs or tastes change, they are free to sell the original model (which includes a transferable warranty) and buy WHICHEVER new amp they might find themselves preferring (and it may not be the plus model).

I just don't understand why you are so angry about the introduction of a new model?

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Correct, and it does not obsolete the original amp which has a different feature set (including size) that some players prefer over other features. There is nothing on the original amp that does not remain fully functional and exactly the same as when it was introduced.

Most players buy an amp based on what it is capable of (including it's size) when they buy it. If their needs or tastes change, they are free to sell the original model (which includes a transferable warranty) and buy WHICHEVER new amp they might find themselves preferring (and it may not be the plus model).

I just don't understand why you are so angry about the introduction of a new model?

And all the while Andy was working this stuff, he was still here, prolifically posting in these and other threads. Sharing his vast knowledge with us mere mortals.
With calm, helpful, friendly, and being as transparent as possible.
Here hear Andy.
Good show.

 

[Lowendtech]

I just don't understand why you are so angry about the introduction of a new model?

^^^
I'm actually a bit sad that a company now has to account for some people actually getting sore because the company has been working on getting them new and different offerings. I guess you really can't please everyone.

 

[StayLow]

Boy, you sound just like a Luddite to me! "Send all those fancy new spinning frames and power looms straight to Hell! The old way is the right way!"
But for me, keep bringing on this great 21st Century technology!!

It's not about the new vs. the old way, it's about form and function, and a hint of fashion which counts for a lot in music. It's about me not needing or wanting whatever screens and sub-menus may offer, and with having enough screens in my day-to-day life and enough pleasures (concerts) ruined by screens (usually wielded by inconsiderate cretins) and menus ("Push 1 to stay on hold, Push 2 for a language spoken in foreign countries, Push 3 to be disconnected").

Similarly, I have engineered albums in pro studios (and as I said above have a solid IT background), yet can't give a damn about digital multitrack recorders with "virtual tracks" etc. Music is supposed to be fun, not frustrating, and the last thing anyone wants to see onstage - be they bandleader or audience - is someone scrolling through menus to get it right. One function = one knob, switch or fader. KISS.

Music's nothing new. Smaller/lighter is fantastic! The rest has been done or played in some form long before, and they didn't need screens and certainly sounded a lot better for having practiced a few extra hours instead of reading instruction manuals.

Similarly, since cars have come into it above, I'm happily "power using" computers and smartphones every day but want nothing to do with a touchscreen DVD player on my car dash. Reverse camera is great - that is not an unnecessarily difficult version of existing tech *and* it's very useful. But scrolling around a touchscreen to increase the stereo volume? I'm turning a knob or they're not making a sale. I've even got a sweet analogue clock in the dash of a high-end sports car. First thing women do when they settle into the supple seats is coo about the clock. Elegance matters, and it's very nice not to have the tyranny of glowing numbers on a screen when going about your day. No way in hell I'll ever have a digital numerical readout for speed or RPM either. It's about balance, and about what works esthetically, reliably, simply and functionally.

Back to music, I do my share of fill-in work or hiring into new bands with one or less rehearsals. Even confident top pros need reassurance. They want a presentable and personable player with gear that looks appropriate and familiar. Funny enough no one's ever asked about what brand even my "boutique" basses are because they're Fender shaped and painted solid colors, but I did have a drummer laugh at me for using a Monster brand speaker cable. In my defense, I got it for free and of course it being Monster it failed shortly thereafter so I ditched it. I'd never have paid for that gimmicky rubbish and should never have used it so lesson learned. Their customer service is legendary because nearly everyone needs it. Catch-22. Keep it simple and keep it real.

Who knows about Mesa's customer service? Who's ever been laughed at or made people nervous showing up with Mesa gear? The dudes with the Dual Rectifiers make everyone a bit nervous, even in Metal. Otherwise, not many.

 

[BassikLee]

And all the while Andy was working this stuff, he was still here, prolifically posting in these and other threads. Sharing his vast knowledge with us mere mortals.
With calm, helpful, friendly, and being as transparent as possible.
Here hear Andy.
Good show.

Not to mention providing service on old Genz heads. Way to go, Andy.

 

[agedhorse]

^^^
I'm actually a bit sad that a company now has to account for some people actually getting sore because the company has been working on getting them new and different offerings. I guess you really can't please everyone.

Correct, it's a different design with different features for different players, not just a new version of, or upgrade to the original. Those happy with the feature set (performance hasn't changed) of the original model really have no compelling reason to consider the new model unless their needs (or wants) have changed. It's not like anybody has to upgrade (unlike operating systems where things may stop operating without appropriate OS updates... I've been bitten pretty bad by this on my phone and worse by "automatic" updates that totally screwed the pooch with Win 7 by pushing me into Win 10 "upgrade" after I excluded the option from the list. Fortunately I was able to recover, not my idea of a good upgrade customer service experience )

 

[mmbongo]

True, but on the other hand I don't have to sell that amp to buy Amp+. I get Amp+ for free.

What are you going to do with they come out with the 1000 watt version of Amp+? Bet that won't be free.

 

[Munjibunga]

^^^
I'm actually a bit sad that a company now has to account for some people actually getting sore because the company has been working on getting them new and different offerings. I guess you really can't please everyone.

... except that both offerings were developed at the same time.

 

[Munjibunga]

Correct, and it does not obsolete the original amp which has a different feature set (including size) that some players prefer over other features. There is nothing on the original amp that does not remain fully functional and exactly the same as when it was introduced.

Most players buy an amp based on what it is capable of (including it's size) when they buy it. If their needs or tastes change, they are free to sell the original model (which includes a transferable warranty) and buy WHICHEVER new amp they might find themselves preferring (and it may not be the plus model).

I just don't understand why you are so angry about the introduction of a new model?

Who's angry? I'm just disappointed that there was a amp with the feature set I'd like developed at the same time and released a year later.

 

[agedhorse]

Who's angry? I'm just disappointed that there was a amp with the feature set I'd like developed at the same time and released a year later.

I'll accept disappointed as perhaps a better choice of words.

There's only so much product we can get into the pipeline at one time, without breaking people. We chose the product that the majority of test players thought would be the more popular model. I'm sure there would have been disappointed players had we introduced the other model first,

 

[Munjibunga]

Correct, it's a different design with different features for different players, not just a new version of, or upgrade to the original. Those happy with the feature set (performance hasn't changed) of the original model really have no compelling reason to consider the new model unless their needs (or wants) have changed. It's not like anybody has to upgrade (unlike operating systems where things may stop operating without appropriate OS updates... I've been bitten pretty bad by this on my phone and worse by "automatic" updates that totally screwed the pooch with Win 7 by pushing me into Win 10 "upgrade" after I excluded the option from the list. Fortunately I was able to recover, not my idea of a good upgrade customer service experience )

There is no need to upgrade the OS - it's not about fixing bugs, it's about adding desireable features, features that most other amps don't have - all at no cost to the user. If you want, you can just leave the first firmware version in and use it like a Subway. To my knowledge, there have been no firmware failures in the amp. It's not an amp for those afraid of technology, hence, it's not for everyone.

Now if you go back and read my early posts in the D800 thread, you'll see that I'm very complimentary and recommend it in the sub-$800 range. I still like it, but mine is for sale so I can get an 800+ (it's shinier and newer).

Also, for whoever said they need an amp with an analog preamp, the "other" amp's preamp is analog.

 

[nostatic]

This is one of the more confounding threads I've read on TB. People are upset because Mesa "withheld" an amp from the market? That's nuts. Small companies have to be very careful about both their R&D and their product launches. Timing is everything. Releasing the 800+ at the same time as the 800 would have no doubt cut into 800 sales. Following a year product cycle (which mirrors many major electronics manufacturers) allows them to get good sales on the 800 (due to the quality of the product), and then, perhaps, good sales on the 800+. That's smart business.

No one forced anyone to buy an 800, so it the 800+ pisses those owners off, then I suppose they don't have to buy the 800+. But product updates/enhancements and other models happen with any good company. The whole idea is to get better over time.

I see them as reasonably different products. There are plenty of players who don't want parametric mids - they want a simple setup. If the eq points of the 800 work for them, then they are happy (and seems there have been plenty of those). For players that want more control, now they've got that with the 800 power section and voicing.

It's a win-win, and the only people who have "lost" are those that bought the 800 but really wanted parametric eq. But they even haven't lost - they can buy an 800+ and keep the 800 as a backup or sell it. Such is life with gear...