To clarify my thoughts on this, I think the Astros should have had the 2017 title stripped from them.
I also think any of the teams suspected of cheating during this period should have been investigated and punishments handed out as necessary.
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MLB 2022
- Thread starter Gaolee
- Start date
To clarify my thoughts on this, I think the Astros should have had the 2017 title stripped from them.
I also think any of the teams suspected of cheating during this period should have been investigated and punishments handed out as necessary.
Other than pitchers and catchers, i don't see why any baseball player would need to conserve their energy during a game. What would cause them to get tired?I understand how some people feel about hustle, and I agree that it can look bad at times, but I suppose I look at it a bit differently. IMO a lot of the hustle you see, like running hard down the line on an obvious ground out, is nothing more than eyewash. Guys want to look like they're trying hard. I think a big leaguer generally has a very good idea of their odds of reaching base right after the ball leaves the bat, and I would trust an experience ball player to know when to turn it on or not. I won't hold it against a guy for not sprinting at top speed down the 1B line on a grounder hit directly at the 3B or SS. I think it's better to keep that energy in the tank for when it will matter more at a different part of the game/season. Machado is a very dependable player, having played at least 150 games every season since 2015 (and all 60 in the weird 2020 season). He's out there on the field everyday. In an average 162 game season, he'll hit .280, OPS over .800, sock 30 dingers, drive in over 90 runs, and play respectable defense at 3B. He's a really good player! A clear upgrade over many other teams' third baseman IMHO. He gives his team way more with his bat and glove than what he might rarely take away by not always hustling. Just my 2 cents
I don't begin to believe the Astros were the only team stealing signs. But apparently they were so blatantly obvious that MLB had to do something. Everyone else caught doing the same should have been punished but the Astros should have had the title stripped.
I understand how some people feel about hustle, and I agree that it can look bad at times, but I suppose I look at it a bit differently. IMO a lot of the hustle you see, like running hard down the line on an obvious ground out, is nothing more than eyewash. Guys want to look like they're trying hard. I think a big leaguer generally has a very good idea of their odds of reaching base right after the ball leaves the bat, and I would trust an experience ball player to know when to turn it on or not. I won't hold it against a guy for not sprinting at top speed down the 1B line on a grounder hit directly at the 3B or SS. I think it's better to keep that energy in the tank for when it will matter more at a different part of the game/season. Machado is a very dependable player, having played at least 150 games every season since 2015 (and all 60 in the weird 2020 season). He's out there on the field everyday. In an average 162 game season, he'll hit .280, OPS over .800, sock 30 dingers, drive in over 90 runs, and play respectable defense at 3B. He's a really good player! A clear upgrade over many other teams' third baseman IMHO. He gives his team way more with his bat and glove than what he might rarely take away by not always hustling. Just my 2 cents
You are being paid 8 digit millions to try. Hustle wins games, and hot dogs kill locker rooms. First, always force a fielder to make the play. I'm not saying run for your life on every grounder, but good grief, at least look like you are trying to get there. Make the fielder make a play. Always. "Know when to run or not"? So they can predict errors and bad hops? Janky throws from a pitcher forced to field to his weak side? Manny's BS directly cost his team a run, and he does not care. That attitude is poison. What do you think that too-cool-for-school 'tude does amongst players who can't get permission granted to be a dog with their numbers. Yeah, I pile on the guy, because he asked for it. A lot of players dog it to first, never heard anybody else say, in over 50 years of being a fan, "I don't hustle", as if effort was beneath him.
Yeah, a very dependable player. Who cost his team a run in a playoff game. He also pressed at the plate, another sign of ego case, and didn't really deliver there either. I understand why teams/fans put up with the behavior, I admit I've rooted for some chuds, but I will always demand more from a guy who got a $20,000,000 signing bonus.
Costing a run is worth less than "keeping energy in the tank"? I would disagree with that for sure. I also don't think running to first should create an energy issue for a top tier athlete. That's kinda silly.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
The "shot heard round the world" to win the 1951 playoffs between the Giants and the Dodgers - Shot Heard 'Round the World (baseball) - Wikipedia
It's one of the most celebrated plays in baseball ("the Giants win the pennant"), and now pretty common knowledge that the Giants had a sign stealing setup more elaborate than the Astros used.
I'm not saying the Astros should be forgiven. But they are hardly the first team to try this cr@p.
Things like running the bases, playing a premium defensive position, managing a nagging injury that isn't bad enough to put the guy on the IL but is still bothersome, mental fatigue. 162 is a long season, and each day at the ballpark can be long in and of itself. Players who are able to play all 162 have to manage a lot of different things. An example I'm thinking of re: running the bases: A guy doesn't bust it down the line on a ground out early in the game, during a lower leverage plate appearance; saves his legs; and is then able to run all-out and go 1st to 3rd (or score from 1st) later in the game at a higher leverage moment. I trust players to make these types judgements in-game, as not every plate appearance or game has the same leverage. Play according to the situation, basically, and do whatever you can to make sure you can go every single day.
Nobody can predict errors or bad hops or bad throws, but I think a player can certainly make a quick judgement of their odds to reach base in the moment and then dial up the intensity accordingly. Hit a grounder directly to a Gold Glove caliber 3B or SS where they have time to make the play cleanly, you're almost always out. You can still run hard, but you're really just keeping up appearances because the odds of an error occurring are going to be low. In other words, it's eyewash. On the other hand, if you hit a slow roller, the defender was playing deep, and they need to charge in hard, barehand it and throw all in one fast/fluid motion to have a chance at throwing you out, then run harder because your odds of reaching base are much better. We can't expect players to be perfect, sometimes there are mistakes or wrong guesses; but I would trust and expect that more often than not, a big leaguer with as much experience as somebody like Machado will make the right play.
But never mind that. The Astros are the modern day Black Sox. I want the Phillies to win, even though there's no reason to even think about the Phillies most of the time.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Goalee might have a completely different reason for his post. But as I see it both teams were doing something that probably some players on every team were doing but they were so blatantly open with it that they got caught and in the Black Sox case punished.
slobake
resident ... something
A tip of my SFGiants cap if the Astros win the world series. If they play hard and are the best team they deserve to win. I am still rooting for the Phillies. I agree with others that the Astros should have been stripped of their 2017 title. The best thing for the Astros to do now is the play good baseball and wait for the memory of 2017 to fade. Houston fans being defensive only aggravates matters.
I am also aware that many other teams have cheated and probably still are, starting with the SFGiants. The issue with Houston is they cheated, kept their title and seemed unrepentant until this day.
Go Phillies!
I am also aware that many other teams have cheated and probably still are, starting with the SFGiants. The issue with Houston is they cheated, kept their title and seemed unrepentant until this day.
Go Phillies!
it's an established fact that other teams were cheating before the astros that season. the astros took it to another level by banging on cans...under the tutelage and guidance of beltran, who brought the system over from the yankees (and who assured the team 'this is how the yankees win'), abetted by fellow mastermind cora, from the red sox.
what's unusual is this: altuve and kemp opted out; they did not cheat. only three postion players reamin from that '17 team. and the most crazy bit of all ... the '17 astros had a better road record than home record, including the alcs and the ws. they were better when they didn't cheat ...
i am on record stating that the 2017 title should be vacated. i don't recognize it myself. astros are 0-3 in world series. it'd be nice to win one.
here's a puff piece on mattress mack to give y'all a bit more to hate
Houston Astros superfan Mattress Mack can't lose, no matter who wins the World Series
it's an established fact that other teams were cheating before the astros that season. the astros took it to another level by banging on cans...under the tutelage and guidance of beltran, who brought the system over from the yankees (and who assured the team 'this is how the yankees win'), abetted by fellow mastermind cora, from the red sox.
what's unusual is this: altuve and kemp opted out; they did not cheat. only three postion players reamin from that '17 team. and the most crazy bit of all ... the '17 astros had a better road record than home record, including the alcs and the ws. they were better when they didn't cheat ...
i am on record stating that the 2017 title should be vacated. i don't recognize it myself. astros are 0-3 in world series. it'd be nice to win one.
here's a puff piece on mattress mack to give y'all a bit more to hate
Houston Astros superfan Mattress Mack can't lose, no matter who wins the World Series
If the Astros keep pitching like the last games I don't see how a cheating scandal from 5 years ago is relevant to today.
Don't get me started on Mack!
good points. i may be defensive, but i strive to respond rationally with facts of the matter. fans of sports team are mostly emotional thinkers in such regards, so facts sometimes whizz by them like a ryan fastball
i think the thing with the astros 'unrepentance' is that they took the fall for all the cheating that was taking place. manfred's mishandling of the situation is the real issue here. and of course fiers broke the 'code'. then again, it's like the steroid issue ... don't mcgwire, sosa, bonds, and rodriguez have their records still? but yes, i agree the 2017 title should be vacated.
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I don't like the Yankees, either. The Mariners sucked at cheating. Or maybe never even tried. Which makes it even worse.
It's hard for me not to root for Dusty Baker, though.
obtw ... is aaron judge gonna sign with the giants? or maybe the dodgers? rumor is he wants to go west coast ... and that the yankees may look to sign correa
