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My DP Pushic Custom fiasco........
- Thread starter 4string4ever
- Start date
I can't see how this would help intonation, but a neck with a slight 'twist' in this direction is a good thing, IMO. Low E and B strings generally have less tension and more excursion than the high strings, so more relief on the bass than treble side should allow a lower action setup, all other things being equal.4string4ever said:
To clarify, that's the _only_ thing I find defensible here...
oversoul said:I was actually given dP as an option for my 9 string back in the day, but they always seemed suspicious and roughly crafted
OK, now that was uncalled for, Now I'm gonna have nightmares.
Bryan R. Tyler said:
Look. First of all, I really dont want people responding to this just saying that Im stupid and that my opinions dont matter because theyre not yours. And dont argue with my opinion.. its mine.. youre not going to change it and you have no reason to try.
Now to business.
Lets get some things down first. Im not looking for perfection. Im looking for something made by a human and not some elitist perfectionist woodworker. People make mistakes, and thats my favorite part about them.
Im not looking for a wishbass. I understand that hes not the best luthier in the world, but I dont mind. What Im going to get is still going to be better than anything I could buy in a store. Sure, the instruments you can buy in a store are perfect in that their pickup routing is flawless and their joints are perfectly flat and parallel.
Other luthiers also have problems (imo). Most of their problems stem from the price. Look.. Im paying for an instrument that plays music, not something I can put on a stand and examine all day with a caliper to make sure that everything is 100% even. Does it have to be? Not for me. Maybe for you, but not for me. I dont want to spend 2500-5000 dollars on something like that. Frankly, I wont be able to really appreciate it to the point where the amount I paid actually becomes worth it. Will my tastes change over time? Sure, why not, but why fret about that now?
I looked at the pictures 4string4ever sent me. The problems with the tuners does bother me, and Ill make sure to have him fix it if they are messed up. The problem with the body laminates doesnt bother me. If I wanted a lot of really great looking laminates, Id have gone with an Alembic. The problems with the neck bother me too. Id have it fixed if it was really a problem for me. Will they happen? Of the dozens of basses hes made, Im really not too worried.
The whole thing about a stray good one coming out of his shop... thats so stupid. Ive heard of lots of good stories about his basses, and Im sure theyll only get better as he gains more experience. People REALLY tend to focus on the negative here (esp on this topic)... and things tend to get blown out of proportion. Does 4string4evers bass still play? Yes, and thats good enough for me because the cosmetic flaws are so miniscule that you can barely see them. If it was huge swirls in the finish, then that would be a different story. I cant see the problem with his finish.
I have only heard of 1 or 2 really major problems.. and I know that at least one of them was fixed perfectly. People get fed up with Dave because he takes a lot of offense to criticism, which I can understand (esp with the complete bs you guys put him though. Whats the reason for it, really?).
I hope this answers your question.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
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I personally DO want to spend the extra $$ to get something as close to perfect as possible. To suggest that people buy high end basses to put them on a stand and scrutinize their perfection is just silly.
All of those little build features you don't care about have a lot to do with the sound and dependability of the finished instrument. Yes, you might not care about perfect pickup routs, but they're indicative of overall build quality...How can you be sure that the neck pocket is going to be cut right if the pickup routs aren't? Or the neck? I buy basses for their sound, playability AND beauty.
I sincerely do hope your new bass is everything you hope.
All of those little build features you don't care about have a lot to do with the sound and dependability of the finished instrument. Yes, you might not care about perfect pickup routs, but they're indicative of overall build quality...How can you be sure that the neck pocket is going to be cut right if the pickup routs aren't? Or the neck? I buy basses for their sound, playability AND beauty.
I sincerely do hope your new bass is everything you hope.
bassmonkeee said:Holy carp...I missed the part where he actually said that a twisted neck is a good thing.
Indeed, a twisted neck is not a good thing, however, several builders intentionally put slightly more relief on the bass side of the fretboard to accommodate the mass of the larger diameter strings.
Riis
I dont get you guys.. you all preach "to each his own" but its not like that at all...
Anyways. Its a neck-through so theres no neck pocket.
And not having pegheads that are even distances from the edges of the headstock wont affect the sound.. and neither will whether nor not you have 1/32" too much wood between the wing and the neck... and neither will body laminates that are 1/32" too wide or too thick in certain areas. Also.. what do you mean that these things are indicative of the build quality? Why dont you just LOOK at the build quality? Its definitaley something you can measure. And if you cant.. then who cares?
Fine... you want to spend your money on a boutique bass.. thats fine with me.. but dont trash me just because you dont agree with me. (im not talking about you, burning skies)
Frankly Im sick of the sophomoric hypocrisy on these forums. Its really disgusting. If you have something intelligent to say, say it. Otherwise dont waste my time.
Anyways. Its a neck-through so theres no neck pocket.
And not having pegheads that are even distances from the edges of the headstock wont affect the sound.. and neither will whether nor not you have 1/32" too much wood between the wing and the neck... and neither will body laminates that are 1/32" too wide or too thick in certain areas. Also.. what do you mean that these things are indicative of the build quality? Why dont you just LOOK at the build quality? Its definitaley something you can measure. And if you cant.. then who cares?
Fine... you want to spend your money on a boutique bass.. thats fine with me.. but dont trash me just because you dont agree with me. (im not talking about you, burning skies)
Frankly Im sick of the sophomoric hypocrisy on these forums. Its really disgusting. If you have something intelligent to say, say it. Otherwise dont waste my time.
lamborghini98 said:
Noone's keeping you here........Look, it shouldn't matter what anyone thinks. If you get the bass and it works for you than that's great. I personally wouldn't give the guy my money though.
Im just surprised that no one recognizes this bs and does something about it.
I mean... even coming from a moderator? I like some of the stuff that comes out of these forums... but a lot of it is just depraved.
I mean... even coming from a moderator? I like some of the stuff that comes out of these forums... but a lot of it is just depraved.
Tetchy, eh? The reason some people post good reviews about unsatisfactory products they bought is that, exactly like you, they don't have the character to admit they made a mistake in ignoring others' advice. Some luthiers' reputations around here are much less than stellar, and one is even lower now because of your post.lamborghini98 said:
Admit it, you did not heed the advice of many in here who are much more experienced than you in general, some even with direct experience with the product of which you speak. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and we're entitled to ours. And it's starting to look like ours is that you muffed it.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,348
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
lamborghini98 said:
I have a 1973 P bass. The strings on the G side come close to being off the fretboard. THAT is a build issue. Fender is famous for their lack of quality control in certain eras. A while back, there was a thread about the quality of Keith Roscoe's basses...some people returned basses or sold them because of what they considered to be build quality issues. Do a search on Warrior basses. You'll find they're extremely expensive and ALSO have a reputation for build problems.
My point? We're not slagging you based upon your choice of bass, either popular or not. It happens ACROSS price breaks.
It's not elitist for an instrument craftsman to want to make a perfect product...it's pride of workmanship. They'll take the time to make sure things are right in places where people will never even look. I personally think they should DEFINITELY make the effort in places where people will look. Its not elitist for us players to appreciate the effort, skill, time, creativity and vision that certain luthiers put into their work, nor to give them the $$$ they ask for. In most cases they deserve more, and are getting by on an almost hand-to-mouth level so they can build.
No one's slagging you for having your own opinion...We all have our own likes and dislikes...I, for instance own a PRS bass too. But the question about 'why' is valid when there's a long and easily accessed record of honest appraisals of a luthier's work. I'm not talking about those who throw mud for the fun of it...look at those who post about THIER basses.
Bryan R. Tyler
TalkBass: Usurping My Practice Time Since 2002
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lamborghini98 said:
If to you a good bass is that even when riddled with mistakes, it can still play and that's good enough for you, then there's no good reason for you to get a custom bass. If your tastes are really that unpicky, then there's nothing that a comparably priced bass can't give you sound and playability-wise that a Pushic can that you won't be satisfied with. You go custom because you want something different and better than what's out there.... You also don't have to pay $2500-$5000 to get a bass better than a DP. Heck, if you buy used, you can get a great one for about the same price as a DP. Most of the basses I own were $2000 or under.
If you think that the "stray good one coming out of his shop" comment is stupid, then you either haven't done much research, or haven't been around long enough to see that half of the people who give good reviews to them end up selling them on eBay or Bassgear.com. Even Jeff Rader gave his DP a good review when it came out, hoping that Dave would fix all the issues. Jeff later apologized for putting out those good comments too early.
If you think that people shouldn't be so picky with a less-expensive custom, there will be a consensus that agrees to a point. Rarity of woods, quailty of finish, etc. will often go down some with a lower price. There's no excuse for structural problems even at a lower price. Look to FBB and Stambaugh for similarly priced basses that don't have to get sent back to be fixed. Customers deserve a quality product at any price point.
If you think the TB members are to blame for giving Dave BS, then you're simply wrong. Pushic owns a business. If he makes inferior products and feels they are okay to send out to his patient customers, then he deserves all the comments he gets. Being willing to take a bass back and fix the problems isn't a sign of good customer service- it's a sign of poor craftsmenship and irresponsibility for putting them out in the first place.
DP has a low instrument output. That makes it easier to check his quality control by the owners of the instruments. Here's a few TBers who have quoted cosmetic or structural issues with their basses:
Jeff Rader- sold it after Dave gave up trying to fix his mistakes
4string4ever- obviously had many cosmetic and structural errors
teacherguy- said his was a BIG disappointment..."Basically a high school shop project (that earned a C+)."
Luis Fabara- stated poor build quality, flaws, had to re-solder the electronics himself
mark beem- sold due to cosmetic and structural errors
DZ- sold due to structural errors
FiXeR- tried selling his to me. Unknown to him were all of the issues the bass had. The bass was checked out for me by a well-known and respected luthier before I sent out payment, and the luthier was really appalled at the electronics mishaps and the neck- he told me not to waste my money.
Reverend G-Money- had to return his because of build issues
Brooks- sold his, which had cosmetic and structural issues
SMG- had to rebuild and refinish the two DPs he had
rickbass- loved the sound of his but was always troubled by the poor finish which make the pretty top very dark and unclear.
Here are some other TBers who have sold their DPs, several of which have commented on cosmetic issues:
JSCHRO7376
bassdr
ironfist
chbecker
ryan morris
lwleaver- bought Jeff Rader's when he sold it, sold it. The bass is now infamous in how many hands it's been passed through.
Professor X
drivenmore bought Professor X's when he sold it
I can count at least five or six more basses on DPs site that I've seen for sale by players who never visit TalkBass.
Normally this many basses of a particular brand being resold wouldn't be a big thing, but considering the small output of the luthier and the percentage of TBers who ordered DPs and had problems with the build compared to those that didn't, and other non-TBers who sell their DPs on eBay and Bassgear.com, there is a problem that needs to be looked at. I do honestly think though that a lot of the people who are very satisfied with the bass they receive from him haven't tried playing customs from many other builders. Can you think of other custom builders who receive the flak DP gets? If not, why do you think that is?
SMG made a comment that sums it up pretty well I think:
"I do think DP offers a conmedable service by custom building instruments to other's designs....even when they are not the best designs in the world. He deserves praise for being willing to do that. On the other hand, I believe that when one markets an item, they are marketing themselves, and hardware and electronics could be areas to cut corners to offer lower prices, but craftsmanship is craftsmanship and should always be held to high standards."
Does all of this mean that Pushic can't put out a fantastic instrument? No. Does all of this mean that he can't improve? No. It's quite possilbe you'll get the bass of your dreams from him, particularly if you're not picky.
Is Pushic human and makes mistakes like everyone else? Yes. I know the hardships of owning and running a small craftsmenship business on the side. But you don't sell your mistakes. You shouldn't be thinking that you're buying an instrument from a person, and that you'll forgive them for the mistakes because their human. I would only make such forbearances if the person was giving me a bass for free, or at a major discount. A business is a business, and should be thought of as such. If you don't, you're liable to get screwed in the end.
Brad Johnson once said, "The old adage about first impressions is still true. It can be very difficult for a new owner to get the negative taste out of their mouth once it's their, even if you do eventually build the instrument they thought they were paying for. In the meantime you have to spend countless hours communicating, working and shipping gear you may have been able to do right in the first place."
Pushic receives flak because of Pushic's work. To think the customer is to blame is being ignorant. That's a generalized statement, not pointed at lamborghini98. If you spoil your own reputation, then you get what you get, and it is not the fault of the customers.
lamborghini98 said:
You kind of invited some of these responses with this post.
Seriously, most of the people making negative comments about Dave's basses are former owners, or friends of former owners.
Maybe they are all lying?
Bryan R. Tyler
TalkBass: Usurping My Practice Time Since 2002
Staff member
Administrator
Gold Supporting Member
Supporting Member
- May 3, 2002
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- Reviewer: Bass Player Magazine
lamborghini98 said:
By the way, no one said you were stupid or that your opinions didn't matter. You posted a very obvious concern about having just ordered a DP, and I posted an honest question asking why you chose to do so despite all the warnings.
I'm also sorry if you think people are trying to force you to change your opinion. People with actual experience were trying to give you honest information about something you had no experience with. That's a good thing in my book. You yourself made it very clear that you didn't know what to do in this very thread.
