Never Ordering a Schroeder Cab Again

[jnewmark]

So. Are we having fun yet?

Well, at least we got both sides of the story, although, for awhile there, I thought I was stuck in The Twilight Zone.

 

[12bass]

There are still a few facts in question from what I can tell... one is whether or not the seller convinced the buyer to get a 4 ohm cabinet when he originally asked for an 8 ohm.

 

[Flooflox]

Well, at least we got both sides of the story, although, for awhile there, I thought I was stuck in The Twilight Zone.

Wild that you said that. I just starting watching an episode called "The Passersby" 1961 and then looked at this thread as the opening credits started rolling.

 

[jnewmark]

There are still a few facts in question from what I can tell... one is whether or not the seller convinced the buyer to get a 4 ohm cabinet when he originally asked for an 8 ohm.

If you read post #120, he initially wanted a 4 ohm cab.

 

[jnewmark]

Wild that you said that. I just starting watching an episode called "The Passersby" 1961.

" The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street ", is my fave.

 

[12bass]

If you read post #120, he initially wanted a 4 ohm cab.

Not that simple... gotta read the whole post, not just the first line.

I was considering a 15+2x10 cab. 4 ohms. Jorg and I went back and forth. After having some good experience with the Berg 15+6, I said, "you know what, why don't we do a Schroeder 15+6 at 8ohms?" Jorg told me he couldn't do a 6" speaker, but could do and 8" speaker. He also recommended that I do it at 4 ohms. I had in mind that we would do 8ohms, so I could potentially add 12's or 10's, should I like the cabinet. Jorg then told me that he had developed a box that would enable me to utilize both 4 ohm cabs with an amp that could only handle a minimum 4ohm load, and that the box had been thoroughly tested and was trustworthy.

According to the above, the OP originally asked for 8 ohms, but was recommended 4 ohms by the seller.

 

[jnewmark]

Not that simple....



According to the above, the OP originally asked for 8 ohms, but was recommended 4 ohms by the seller.

Nevertheless, a 4 ohm cab was in the Op's mind initially, and was discussed with Jorg. " Jorg and I went back and forth ".

 

[12bass]

Nevertheless, a 4 ohm cab was in the Op's mind initially, and was discussed with Jorg. " Jorg and I went back and forth ".

Sounds like disconfirmation bias, and missing the details. According to the quote, the OP inquired about ordering an 8 ohm cabinet but was sold a 4 ohm cabinet. The fact that he considered a 4 ohm cabinet before placing the order is irrelevant. He actually requested an 8 ohm cabinet, not 4 ohms. The 4 ohm solution was at the suggestion of the seller, not the buyer.

 

[CheapTrickFanatic]

Man. I don't even know where to start? I will say, off the bat, that I'm really disappointed in many of the responses I'm seeing. To say the very least. I'm being kind, seeing that I've been criticized so harshly. I made an honest post about my experience with Jorg and Schroeder, and the general response was immediately, "liar!" Jorg responds (or even a user simply QUOTING Jorg second hand, and everyone stands up and yells, "truth!!" I must admit, I'm seriously disappointed and almost appalled at some of you guys.

I have read responses from some of you, essentially calling me an idiot (IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT JORG, HIMSELF, DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THE PARTICULAR SPEAKON CABLES BEING AND ISSUE AND DID NOT ATTEMPT TO CLARIFY THAT. Outside of a photo he sent me of a generic speakon cable laying on a table, stating, "you need one of these.") But, of course, Jorg is incapable of wrongdoing, or ignorance, so, it must be all MY fault lol. I have read response after response from a number of you, consistently arguing about whether or not the box runs the cab at 4ohm, 8ohms, or god knows how many ohms. For the fourth time, I don't give a s**t if the box runs a 4 or 8 ohms. This wasn't a technical post. This was a post addressing the fact that JORG WAS NOT A PART OF THE SOLUTION. Jorg recommended and sold a product, and didn't follow through to ensure his customer was taken care of. If, after stating this so very many damned times, some of you still want to cast aspersions on me and endlessly debate how many ohms the box will produce, I'm not sure what more to even say.

So! Since some of you are so insistent that I'm to blame, or I'm lying, or making poopie up, or whatever it is you are saying about me, AND, since Jorg is now involved, AND, seeing some of you guys seem to only want to bicker and fight, I'll take the gloves off. I'm going to post my email conversations with Jorg. At least the ones that pertain to the purchase of these particular cabinets and this "box." I will not burden you guys with back and forth deliberations between Jorg and myself, regarding speaker choices, potential used cabs (that are never actually available), and various other cabinet conversations. I am going to focus on only emails that pertain to this particular thread. Since Jorg is now involved, he can verify that my use of the email quotes are accurate.

It would be much easier for me to simply walk away from this ridiculousness, but, seeing that I'm being held up as the inept, ignorant ******* who dared to order two cabs from a boutique cab dealer who can do no wrong, I'm going to stay and fight this out.

 

[CheapTrickFanatic]

11/20/17 Jorg ~


I would definitely go with the 8/15

and I would recommend a 4 ohm cabinet especially if you don't push it to hard, even though the B&Cs can handle some serious juice if necessary


11/20/17 Scott ~


I was thinking 8 ohms, in case I, at some point, wanted to add a second 15/8 cab... But, if you feel that the 4ohm design is the way to go, I trust your judgement. Let's do it!


11/20/17 Jorg ~


I would recommend a 4 ohm cabinet; and if you decide to order a 2nd unit my engineer came up with a converter box

where you can connect two 4 ohm cabinets to a 4 ohm amp; that box has been tested live for months and it works flawless


11/20/17 Scott ~


Okay. I'll follow your recommendation.


11/20/17 Jorg ~


sounds good, talk soon


12/21/17 Tracking was issued


15/8 cab delivered 12/28/17


2/12/18 Scott~


I don't think I would ever utilize the 2x10, on it's own... Always with the 15. I would need some way to run both cabs, with the 15 being a 4 ohm cabinet. Amp maxes out at 4ohms. Could you give me a ballpark price?


2/12/18 Jorg ~


my engineer designed a converter box where you can run two 4 ohm cabinets with your amp;


it's been diligently road tested and works flawless; if you are interested I offer you the 1000 watts 1210 for $750.00 shipped and include the box free of charge


2/28/18, 12/10 cab tracking sent


3/2/18, 12/10 delivered


3/11/18 Scott ~


Hi Jorg! So, I don't think I'm seeing the box, to run both cabs at the same time..?


3/13/18 Jorg ~


Hi Scott; I went to the Post office and they informed me that the box is on the way, even though it's been taking quite a bit longer than anticipated; if it doesn't arrive by tomorrow or Thursday I'll send you another one please let me know

3/25/18 Scott ~


Hi Jorg, so, just to clarify; this box will enable me to run two four ohm cabs, at a 4ohm total load? Rather than 2 ohms? Just making sure, before I blow poopie up lol


3/25/18 Jorg ~


Yes, you can connect two 4 ohm cabs with it

At some point here, the box finally arrives.


4/11/18 Scott ~


Hmmm. Seems that one of the connections on the box won't take a cable. The other side seems to work just fine. I have lots of speakon cords. That's what I'm saying, one of the plugs isn't taking the speakon cord. Two seem fine, but one is blocked. Internally?


4/11/18 Jorg ~


let me talk to my guy and see if he can send me quick another box


5/24/18 Scott


Hi Jorg! Hey, still waiting to figure out how I can get a working box? We determined that one jack will receive the cable, and the other will not.


5/24/18 Jorg


Hi Jack

sorry for the delay, my engineer was a bit overwhelmed

I should have some new ones next week

Thanks


5/31/18 Scott


Hi Jorg... any word on this box, as yet. I've been waiting for a working box, for a very long time. The cabinets are totally useless in tandem, without a working box. Perhaps the engineer wants to speak w/me directly, to make sure I'm utilizing the box I have correctly? Should simply accept a speakon cable?


5/31/18 Jorg


Hi Scott. I should receive some boxes today or tomorrow, and will send one out right away

Thanks


6/22/18 Scott ~

Hi Jorg. Seeing that I have been unable to get a functional box, I'm going to list these cabinets for sale. If you wouldn't mind, please send me a functional box for the buyer. I will pay for it, if necessary. Please.

6/22/18 Jorg

Scott

My engineer had surgery and is in the hospital. Therefore the delay. Things can happen. Thank you

 

[jnewmark]

Sounds like disconfirmation bias, and missing the details. According to the quote, the OP inquired about ordering an 8 ohm cabinet but was sold a 4 ohm cabinet. The fact that he considered a 4 ohm cabinet before placing the order is irrelevant. He actually requested an 8 ohm cabinet, not 4 ohms. The 4 ohm solution was at the suggestion of the seller, not the buyer.

Well, we will have to disagree. In my opinion, he discussed a 4 ohm cab first with Jorg, no ? Then came the 8 ohm cab discussion, then the ordered 4 ohm cab. Those are the details, no ? To say that he " originally " wanted an 8 ohm cab is not accurate - they discussed a 4 ohm cab first. But, hey, read it the way you want to.

 

[CheapTrickFanatic]

Now, look. Jorg may be a GREAT dude, and some of you may ADORE his cabs. Again, for the fourth time, GOD BLESS Y'ALL! But! All of that doesn't negate the fact that Jorg f***ed this one up, and, seeing that I could absolutely get nowhere with him, I took the issue elsewhere. Some of you guys have actually been helpful, calling my attention to the possibility that some of the plugs on the "box" may take a different type of speakon cable (thanks for the input!), but, Jorg WAS NOT PART OF THAT PROCESS.

Once again, for the third or fourth time, I run a business too, as some of you do (although, some of you seem to have bucket loads of time, to sit around, talk about ohms and call people idiots lol). If I had a customer who was so pissed and fed up with me and my company, that they chose to take the issue public, I'd be on the damned phone in 30 seconds, saying, "Holy smokes. What can I do, to be helpful!!?" Aaaaaand, again, for the third or fourth time, JORG IS STILL NOWHERE TO BE SEEN, ON MY END! Not an email, saying something to the effect of, "Hey Scott. I'm so sorry you are having trouble hooking the cabs up as you and I discussed, and I'm sorry I dropped the ball. How can I make this right?" Nothing. Zero. Nada, and, to tell you the truth, after this whole insane interchange, it's just as well. But, like I said, if it were me and my company, I would have been all over this poopie, within minutes. This is bad, bad business. Terrible. I don't care what any of you have to say, regarding that issue. This is bad business. I was totally in the right, to comment about this, publicly.

 

[12bass]

Well, we will have to disagree. In my opinion, he discussed a 4 ohm cab first with Jorg, no ? Then came the 8 ohm cab discussion, then the ordered 4 ohm cab. Those are the details, no ? To say that he " originally " wanted an 8 ohm cab is not accurate - they discussed a 4 ohm cab first. But, hey, read it the way you want to.

Read the actual message exchange posted above.... The OP asked for an 8 ohm cabinet and was told by the seller to buy a 4 ohm instead. From that exchange it is also evident that there is no clarification about how the "magic" connection box is a serial box that doubles the overall impedance when both 4 ohm cabinets are connected. From the available evidence, it appears to me that the seller made a poor recommendation to the OP in suggesting 4 ohm cabinets and a series connection box. That's certainly not what I would have done. 8 ohms would have been a much better choice. And I'm guessing the engineering types here would agree....

 

[BadExample]

I made an honest post about my experience with Jorg and Schroeder, and the general response was immediately, "liar!"

Who said that?

11/20/17 Scott ~


I was thinking 8 ohms, in case I, at some point, wanted to add a second 15/8 cab... But, if you feel that the 4ohm design is the way to go, I trust your judgement. Let's do it!


11/20/17 Jorg ~


I would recommend a 4 ohm cabinet; and if you decide to order a 2nd unit my engineer came up with a converter box

where you can connect two 4 ohm cabinets to a 4 ohm amp; that box has been tested live for months and it works flawless

So, you were not pressured to buy the cab you didn't want. You took a recommendation. And the recommendation was based on a 2nd identical cab, not the 2nd cab you ordered.

2/12/18 Jorg ~


my engineer designed a converter box where you can run two 4 ohm cabinets with your amp;


it's been diligently road tested and works flawless; if you are interested I offer you the 1000 watts 1210 for $750.00 shipped and include the box free of charge

Although this implies it will work with the above speaker. Are the two speakers dissimilar? I was under the impression they were. Sorry, I'm not going back through 100's of posts again to read the scattered responses. I'm off work. On R&R. This is just not the time for me to be extracting information.

4/11/18 Scott ~


Hmmm. Seems that one of the connections on the box won't take a cable. The other side seems to work just fine. I have lots of speakon cords. That's what I'm saying, one of the plugs isn't taking the speakon cord. Two seem fine, but one is blocked. Internally?

Whooooa, this is the very first time you mention ONE connector doesn't work. This backs up the @Passinwind post that the wrong screw is screwing it up. Why didn't you tell us this up front? One works and not the others? Once again, the information comes in a rate of water dripping from a leaky faucet.

Buy a screw.

Sloppy work by Jorg's Engineer for sure, hopefully not the norm, perhaps health related (been there, done that myself). The box gets three thumbs down from me.

I would not call you a liar, nor dishonest, and not even purposefully withholding information. I would say you appear to be very weak on communication skills, especially with technology and that you apparently don't have the self-education you need to do what you are trying to do.

I have no pigs in this race. We need to run a poll now. From the information so far, and assuming both parties are honest, my call would be about 75% OP's fault/ 25% Jorg's fault. Jorg's fault being shipping a substandard box, OP's fault being ignorance and not being able to just look at the box and see why it's not taking the speakon (while trying to make the connection, that has to stand out like a sore thumb if paying attention).

 

[Munjibunga]

Sounds like disconfirmation bias, and missing the details. According to the quote, the OP inquired about ordering an 8 ohm cabinet but was sold a 4 ohm cabinet. The fact that he considered a 4 ohm cabinet before placing the order is irrelevant. He actually requested an 8 ohm cabinet, not 4 ohms. The 4 ohm solution was at the suggestion of the seller, not the buyer.

He knew it was a 4-ohm cabinet when he accepted it though. And, again, apparently Jorg never said that the box would enable the OP to run both cabs as a 4-ohm load on the amp. He just said the OP could run both cabs on a 4-ohm capable amp, which a serial box will do. The elephant in the room is that the OP didn't do his research before taking the leap.

 

[12bass]

He knew it was a 4-ohm cabinet when he accepted it though. And, again, apparently Jorg never said that the box would enable the OP to run both cabs as a 4-ohm load on the amp. He just said the OP could run both cabs on a 4-ohm capable amp, which a serial box will do. The elephant in the room is that the OP didn't do his research before taking the leap.

The buyer trusted the seller's expertise. While in general I would agree that buyers ought to be as informed as possible, is there not some obligation on the part of sellers to make sound technical recommendations? In this particular case, it appears that that trust was somewhat misplaced, because the product recommended (and delivered) by the seller was technically worse than what the buyer originally requested. In this case, that trust in the seller's technical expertise appears to have been misplaced, for at least two reasons. One is that the seller recommended a sub-optimal product (the 4 ohm cabinet instead of the 8 ohm originally requested), and two, that the seller provided an apparently non-functioning (poorly constructed) serial box.

 

[tadawson]

Or just get the appropriate cable.

Likely it's cable*S*, and because a connector changeout would be a crapload cheaper than any single commercially made Speakon cable I have seen, much less possibly three . . . . That, and if a cable fails, you are looking at the same problem instead of bumming whatever 4 pole Speakon is handy and being right back up . . .

 

[Munjibunga]

The buyer trusted the seller's expertise. While in general I would agree that buyers ought to be as informed as possible, is there not some obligation on the part of sellers to make sound technical recommendations? In this particular case, it appears that that trust was somewhat misplaced, because the product recommended (and delivered) by the seller was technically worse than what the buyer originally requested. In this case, that trust in the seller's technical expertise appears to have been misplaced, for at least two reasons. One is that the seller recommended a sub-optimal product (the 4 ohm cabinet instead of the 8 ohm originally requested), and two, that the seller provided an apparently non-functioning (poorly constructed) serial box.

Maybe Jorg thought a 3dB loss wouldn't be significant. OK, I'm outta here.

 

[BadExample]

Wait, the 4 ohm cab was recommended based on the OP wanting to be able to add a 2nd identical cab. If that was even brought up at the time of the first cab purchase.

I was thinking 8 ohms, in case I, at some point, wanted to add a second 15/8 cab...

The 4 Ohm cab adds a theoretical UP TO 3db gain over an 8 Ohm cab, IF the speaker is otherwise identical. It is not. Jorg probably believed if the OP ordered the 4 ohm version, it would be loud enough without buying a 2nd cab. Jorg was probably right. OP never said the first cab was not loud enough, nor did he dispute anything Jorg posted. OP did state that he bought the 2 x 10 for more high end or some such... I take that as a desire for a different voicing. From everything Jorg and OP stated, there is no reason to believe the OP did not make the decision to buy a 2 x 10 all on his own, unless I missed something.

There is no 3 db loss by connecting the speakers in series. There is a theoretical UP TO 3 db gain. Speakers connected in parallel can have UP TO 6 db gain. With dissimilar speakers, all bets are off series or parallel.

You fella's can probably put the wrong cable theory to rest. Most likely it's a wrong screw to secure the speakon receptacle in the box. Only one of three does not work. Unless the box builder used a wrong screw and used two different connectors, the issue is just the wrong screw. It's beyond me how one could try to make the connection and not see what was going on.

Ignorance is bliss. But not so much when dealing with technology.

 

[12bass]

There is no 3 db loss by connecting the speakers in series. There is a theoretical UP TO 3 db gain. Speakers connected in parallel can have UP TO 6 db gain. With dissimilar speakers, all bets are off series or parallel.

And what is the difference in gain when connecting two 8 ohm cabinets in parallel (4 ohm combined load), for the full 1000W/4 ohms? In comparison, there is a significant loss in the dual 4 ohm/8 ohm series configuration.

I have to ask...

If you owned a 1000W, 4 ohm minimum amplifier, how many of you here would intentionally choose to buy two 4 ohm cabinets instead of two 8 ohm cabinets? I'm going to bet that almost all of the knowledgeable members here would go with two 8 ohm cabinets, for a host of technical reasons, including power handling, better impedance matching, simpler cabling, less complex load, etc.... I know I certainly wouldn't go with two 4 ohm cabinets, nor would I recommend series wiring except as a kludge. In other words, it is difficult to find good reasons for recommending the dual 4 ohm setup unless one is motivated to do so to back up the seller's case. The dual 8 ohm combination is obviously technically superior.