Never Ordering a Schroeder Cab Again

[Ben B]

Perhaps the OP was unaware that there are three genders on the planet Speakon?

Maybe 4 if we count bridging cables wired +1 +2 on one end.

 

[Red Planet]

I think you missed the bit about the special box allowing two 4 ohm cabs to be used at a combined load of 4 ohms. Post #1 I believe. Strange how that seems to have passed so many by...

No I didn't miss it but don't we all know this is bull hockey?

 

[Downunderwonder]

When you place 2 ohms or resistance in series with 2 ohms, the damping goes all to hell. You also lose 1/2 of the power delivered to the speakers.

Also, running 2 dissimilar cabinets in series can result in unpredictable results because the electro-mechanical parameters can interact in unpredictable ways.

Aside from the dissimilar cabs themselves, is there more unpredictability dependent on the amplifier used?

 

[tadawson]

Unless you need the second set of contacts, NL2 and NL4 are identical shells and fully interchangeable. The NL2 only serves to provide a lower cost alternative for non biamp applications. So, for simple series with an amp and two cabs, u less something very odd is being done, either will work fine. The bigger risk is knockoff Speakons - sometimes those don't mate well with real ones . . . .

And bridging configs are not a 'gender', they are a wiring config. Speakon has *two* shell styles - 8 position and 4 position . . . NL2 is a 4 position shell with only two contacts in it.

 

[Red Planet]

Unless you need the second set of contacts, NL2 and NL4 are identical shells and fully interchangeable. The NL2 only serves to provide a lower cost alternative for non biamp applications. So, for simple series with an amp and two cabs, u less something very odd is being done, either will work fine. The bigger risk is knockoff Speakons - sometimes those don't mate well with real ones . . . .

In all actual reality one will not work in the other but the other will work in one.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

No I didn't miss it but don't we all know this is bull hockey?

17 pages of ludicrous bickering on its become clear the OP got the wrong end of the stick about the box and there was also confusion about cables, but he still started the whole thing with post #1...

I blame the alpacas.

 

[tadawson]

There is no such thing as an NL2 chassis side (or wasn't the last I bought) and either NL2 or NL4 will fit the chassis connector, so I'm very unclear on what you think won't work. All that is lost in NL2 is 2+/2-, if only using 1+/1-, they should interchange either way by design . . . or the new series changed something. I've had both for years with no issues . . . (just not biamping . . . ).

(OK, checked Neutrik and it looks like there now *IS* an2 pin chassis that won't take NL4 connectors . . . but the 4 pin chassis will take anything. Not sure why the change, but it enabled this problem when in the past it would have been impossible . . .)

 

[Red Planet]

There is no such thing as an NL2 chassis side (or wasn't the last I bought) and either NL2 or NL4 will fit the chassis connector, so I'm very unclear on what you think won't work. All that is lost in NL2 is 2+/2-, if only using 1+/1-, they should interchange either way by design . . . or the new series changed something. I've had both for years with no issues . . . (just not biamping . . . ).

(OK, checked Neutrik and it looks like there now *IS* an2 pin chassis that won't take NL4 connectors . . . but the 4 pin chassis will take anything. Not sure why the change, but it enabled this problem when in the past it would have been impossible . . .)

It's always been that way.

 

[Red Planet]

Well, I’ve been just made aware of this “issue” and I believe that I have to chime in and set a few facts straight:



Scott ordered his first cabinet ~ 8-9 months ago not being sure whether wanting a 4 or 8ohm cabinet; I’ve responded that if he plans to use it as a stand alone a unit with a 4 ohm impedance would be perfect, therefore he agreed to that;



a few months later, being more than impressed and pleased with his purchase and planning to replace his other cabinets (no pun intended just stating the facts) he ordered a 2nd cabinet also with a 4 ohm impedance but mentioning that his amp can just handle a 4 ohm minimum impedance;



I’ve informed him that our engineer offers a box wired in series and that he would be able to use it with both cabinets without any worries; I’ve sent him that box free of charge;

Upon receipt Scott informed me that he is unable to use that particular box; I’ve informed him that he needs to use special neutrik cables and emailed him a picture of the correct item asking him to try it that way and it would work perfectly since I’ve personally tested it;



After we haven’t heard from him in a while he informed me than that his 2 cabinets were useless without that box; I’ve responded that I will get in touch with our engineer and will send him a replacement also free of charge;



Now, our engineer is undergoing surgery and won’t be available for a few weeks; I’ve informed Scott of that fact stating that unfortunate things can happen but declaring the cabinets “useless” especially after he agreed to two 4 ohm cabinets is a bit more than far reaching;



People who know me are aware of the fact that I respond to emails in a very timely manner and often send out items free of charge even after a warranty expired;



Thank you

Thank you for chiming in. So your explanation is exactly what I believe to be taking place here. I'm glad you finally got a chance to set the record straight. Your statement is much more plausible for this situation in my opinion than the other version of this story which is extremely implausible in my opinion. How others reached a different conclusion just absolutely blows my mind.

 

[tadawson]

It's always been that way.

Uh, no . . . When Speakon came out, there was no NL2 at all . . .that was added later in it''s life cycle. . .

 

[Red Planet]

Uh, no . . . When Speakon came out, there was no NL2 at all . . .that was added later in it''s life cycle. . .

But that's a different subject matter.

I'm talking about the compatibility between two of the units. One will fit the other but the other will not fit the one.

 

[tadawson]

And again, not in my experience. NL2 was initially cable side only and chassis was all 4 pin, and everything fit . . . . (or my memory over all the years using Speakon is crap . . . but I don't think so). The all plastic NL2 (well, other than the contacts) was simply a lower cost alternative for non biamp applications. With almost no way to save cost by simply pulling two contacts out ofnthe chassis connectors, that was not initially done or available.

I certainly don't miss the crappy barrel you pulled back to unlock the original NL-2's though . . .

 

[agedhorse]

Aside from the dissimilar cabs themselves, is there more unpredictability dependent on the amplifier used?

If the cabinets are identical, the load will behave closer to an 8 ohm load with minimal interactions. Where the 2 loads in series differ, the differences will add together and may in fact cause the unpredictable results. There may be some additional contributions from the amp, but probably not as significant as from the dissimilar speakers.

Unless you need the second set of contacts, NL2 and NL4 are identical shells and fully interchangeable. The NL2 only serves to provide a lower cost alternative for non biamp applications. So, for simple series with an amp and two cabs, u less something very odd is being done, either will work fine. The bigger risk is knockoff Speakons - sometimes those don't mate well with real ones . . . . And bridging configs are not a 'gender', they are a wiring config. Speakon has *two* shell styles - 8 position and 4 position . . . NL2 is a 4 position shell with only two contacts in it.

Well kinda-sorta... the NL2 was introduced shortly after the NL4, primarily to address a full range (or limited bandwidth, or 70 volt application) only scenario. The NL-2 was a little less expensive, but the cost difference in panel mounts was very small.

The panel mount NL2 is not identical and will only accept a cable mount NL-2 (not an NL-4), this is why they work well for 70 volt distributed speakers, or small speakers that may need to be high passed at say 150Hz (like small front fill stage lip cabinets). Using NL2 will prevent a full range and VC impedance signal from being accidentally connected and the speaker damaged)

The (poor quality) counterfeit and knock-off and aftermarket SpeakOns is a very real problem, responsible for a fair number of "failed amp/speaker cabinet" complaints and customer service grief that has nothing to do with the equipment but simply poor quality interconnects.

And again, not in my experience. NL2 was initially cable side only and chassis was all 4 pin, and everything fit . . . . (or my memory over all the years using Speakon is crap . . . but I don't think so). The all plastic NL2 (well, other than the contacts) was simply a lower cost alternative for non biamp applications. With almost no way to save cost by simply pulling two contacts out ofnthe chassis connectors, that was not initially done or available.

I certainly don't miss the crappy barrel you pulled back to unlock the original NL-2's though . . .

The barrel is actually VERY handy where there is limited space to get the finger in to actuate the tab. I have seen equipment designs where a normal finger can't get in to release the connector. Quite frustrating.

 

[tadawson]

The key takeaway here, is that (and not sure we know) if the 'series box' was built with NL4 chassis connectors, all combinations of 2 and 4 should work . . . Not sure what Schroeder actually built, though, but that would seem to be the 'safe' choice, as well as the cheapest fix, if NL2 chassis/NL4 cable compat is really the issue here . . . $12 or so for 3 NL4 chassis connectors, and a few minutes to swap them out . . .

I still kinda hate the barrels, though . . . even with all genuine Neutrik, those are the only ones I have seen not lock very well . . . Can't argue clearance, but never had the issue since I don't crowd my patch panels.

 

[Red Planet]

"Speakon connectors are made in two, four and eight-pole configurations. The two-pole line connector will mate with the four-pole panel connector, connecting to +1 and −1; but the reverse combination will not work. The eight-pole connector is physically larger to accommodate the extra poles. The four-pole connector is the most common at least from the availability of ready-made leads, as it allows for things like bi-amping (two of the four connections for the higher-frequency signal, with the other two for the lower-frequency signal) without two separate cables. Similarly, the eight-pole connector could be used for tri-amping (two poles each for low, mid and high frequencies with two unused), or quad-amping (two poles each for high, mid, low and sub).

Another use for the four-pole cable is to carry two channels of amplified signal from an amplifier to a pair of loudspeakers using a 'combiner' Y-lead connected to the two output channels, and a 'splitter' Y-lead to feed the loudspeakers. The 'combiner' and 'splitter' Y-leads are the same: two two-pole connectors on one end, connected to the ±1 and ±2 pins, respectively, of a four-pole line connector at the other end.[6] Some amplifiers and mixer-amplifiers are configured to do this without the need for a 'combiner'.

Also available are 2-pole "combo" receptacles that can also accept 4-pole cables and 1/4″ phone plugs."

I copied and pasted this from Wiki, I read it and it all seems accurate. I don't think we need debate what connector Jorg used, he used whatever he wanted to. The box was free.

 

[Red Planet]

The key takeaway here, is that (and not sue we know) if the 'series box' wasnbuilt with NL4 chassis connectors, all combinations of 2 and 4 should work . . . Not sure what Schroeder actually built, though, but that would seem to be the 'safe' choice, as well as the cheapest fix, if NL2 chassis/NL4 cable compat is really the issue here . . . $12 or so for 3 NL4 chassis connectors, and a few minutes to swap them out . . .

I still minda hate the barrels, though . . . even with all genuine Neutrik, those are the only ones I have seen not lock very well . . . Can't argue clearance, but never had the issue since I don't crowd my patch panels.

Or just get the appropriate cable.

 

[mcnach]

How does that change the statement in post #1? It doesn’t. It’s merely additional non-conflicting information.

???

It's VERY conflicting. Because #1 is impossible and #120 is not.

 

[mcnach]

Well, I’ve been just made aware of this “issue” and I believe that I have to chime in and set a few facts straight:



Scott ordered his first cabinet ~ 8-9 months ago not being sure whether wanting a 4 or 8ohm cabinet; I’ve responded that if he plans to use it as a stand alone a unit with a 4 ohm impedance would be perfect, therefore he agreed to that;



a few months later, being more than impressed and pleased with his purchase and planning to replace his other cabinets (no pun intended just stating the facts) he ordered a 2nd cabinet also with a 4 ohm impedance but mentioning that his amp can just handle a 4 ohm minimum impedance;



I’ve informed him that our engineer offers a box wired in series and that he would be able to use it with both cabinets without any worries; I’ve sent him that box free of charge;

Upon receipt Scott informed me that he is unable to use that particular box; I’ve informed him that he needs to use special neutrik cables and emailed him a picture of the correct item asking him to try it that way and it would work perfectly since I’ve personally tested it;



After we haven’t heard from him in a while he informed me than that his 2 cabinets were useless without that box; I’ve responded that I will get in touch with our engineer and will send him a replacement also free of charge;



Now, our engineer is undergoing surgery and won’t be available for a few weeks; I’ve informed Scott of that fact stating that unfortunate things can happen but declaring the cabinets “useless” especially after he agreed to two 4 ohm cabinets is a bit more than far reaching;



People who know me are aware of the fact that I respond to emails in a very timely manner and often send out items free of charge even after a warranty expired;



Thank you

And that sounds much like what many here assumed (myself included), because the OP contradicted himself and generally gave the impression of being all over the place.

Thank you for giving your version.

 

[mcnach]

It seems to me like OP has given the impression that he knows what he's talking about, but in reality he doesn't (as we can see from this thread).

Very plainly indeed.

 

[Munjibunga]

So. Are we having fun yet?