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New found respect for John Paul Jones.

#81
Bassgrinder77 said:
Uh, I do. Pages solos were a huge part of Zeppelin.
I care about guitar playing. In fact, I always make sure our sound man has our guitar player LOUD in the mix because it makes us sound better.
I take issue with someone saying Page is a crappy (sloppy, lacking feel, emotion, inspiration or whatever) guitar player because it's an absolutely absurd thing to say. At least from a rock perspective. If you think Jimmy Page is a bad rock guitar player then you either don't like hard rock or you don't know what you're talking about. You might not care for his style but you can't say he was crappy.
Page took risks. He pushed the envelope. And he played very fast at times. I like that. So did John McLaughlin. He was jagged and on the edge at times too. Page's solos were extremely melodic, with TONS of feel and intensity.
I'll also say that a rock bass player who couldn't give a crap about guitar playing probably sucks or has a pathetic inferiority complex.
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Agreed- for the most part. ;) Page DID play fast sometimes- sorta a bit like Angus Young- NOT like a LOTTA more modern gtr-ists that 'cover' a lotta 'stuff' up with added distortion!!! Angus & Jimmy Page simply used the AMP'S tubes PUSHED to get their OD & IT doesn't COVER mistakes/fumbles... which in my opinion-Mr Page made very few of, & even if & when he did, I think it ADDS to the music- shows it aint all 'smoothed out' 'corrected-by cut & paste' etc.......
LOVE PAGE & Jones & Bonham(there's a drummer I'd've LOVED to've worked with) & Plant! I even love Plant & (oh damn I got her name on the tip of my tongue) 'Raising Sand' album!!
 
#82
Bassgrinder77 said:
No. Never heard of it.
My point is (for example) if someone wants to say Jimmy Page or Led Zeppelin are crummy and overrated, let them. And if others of us challenge and even deride those views, that's ok too. And if it becomes a food fight, oh well, BFD. I'd rather have a spirited debate than a phony, sterile one with a buch of PC posturing and moralizing.
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It's a forum with very little moderation. I go there sometimes, as I have a sick sense of humor, but truly, people are awful to each other there. People often tell other posters to kill themselves, seriously. If you prefer it like that, without mods enforcing at least some standards of decorum, then you should check it out. They do have a board for music discussion.

My expectations for a forum like this are entirely different than my amusement at the cess pool that is the aforementioned site. I like that there are rules here.

I disagree with what's his name about Led Zeppelin being overrated, or Jimmy Page being overrated or sloppy or whatever. The man wrote some pretty rocking tunes. But I'm not going to deride someone over not sharing my fondness for a band. If I wanted to tell someone they were worthless pieces of crap for not liking the same music as me, I'd do so on 4chan.
 
#83
I'm with JTE on this one. (Not sure he's still reading this thread.)
Back in the day, I never gave JPJ a chance because I was driven away from Led Zep because Page and Plant were so grating. Actually, Led Zep's entire reason for existing -- gosh, they're HUGER sounding than anyone else! -- seemed so childish to me when you had such musical people as the original Allman Brothers Band (for example) around. But we all look for different things in music, of course.
I do agree that Jones is an excellent musician, and his reputation as a producer and all-around "utility man" is well known. I don't think he's the least bit of an *innovator* on the bass, like Jack Bruce, McCartney or Jamerson... but he's a fine player, obviously. (All my OPINIONS, of course.)
Finally, to the person who brought up Buddy Rich's assessment of Bonham, and dismissed it, saying that a jazz drummer will never compliment a rock drummer: I remember an ancient Life Magazine article where Elvin Jones said how much he loved Keith Moon's playing. I specifically remember this quote, "Now THAT cat's a DRUMMER!"
 
#84
Well, like I said, I don't know anything about that site. That's your deal. But from your description, it sounds too over the top for me.
Sartori said:
It's a forum with very little moderation. I go there sometimes, as I have a sick sense of humor, but truly, people are awful to each other there. People often tell other posters to kill themselves, seriously. If you prefer it like that, without mods enforcing at least some standards of decorum, then you should check it out. They do have a board for music discussion.

My expectations for a forum like this are entirely different than my amusement at the cess pool that is the aforementioned site. I like that there are rules here.

I disagree with what's his name about Led Zeppelin being overrated, or Jimmy Page being overrated or sloppy or whatever. The man wrote some pretty rocking tunes. But I'm not going to deride someone over not sharing my fondness for a band. If I wanted to tell someone they were worthless pieces of crap for not liking the same music as me, I'd do so on 4chan.
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#86
For me, JPJ was my virtual mentor. I loved Led Zeppelin as a teen and learned as many Zep tunes as I could. I found his groove, his extraordinarily tasty lines and his sense of position to be impeccable. While I longed to be able to do what Geddy did, I knew that following a JPJ path was more broad and would open many more doors with regard to playing opportunities.

As for the Zep pro and con conversations - I still have plenty of nostalgia for Zep. That band meant the world to me and my closest friends as we were getting our start in life as musicians. We'd laugh at Jimmy's 'slop', solo-wise - but we'd also marvel at what he did in the studio. Those layered guitar parts - alternate tunings - there was magic in them there strings!

Plant - man... could he wail! I know that wailing is not for everyone and today some of it hits me like a cat on a chalk board - BUT, again... the studio stuff... all albums... Plant is unmatched, IMO.

I try like hell to recapture that 'magic' I used to feel when I was a teen listening to those albums, but I think what life was like as a teen and life is like today is so vastly different that I just can't seem to get there very easily.

But JPJ's contribution to my bass playing is absolutely priceless! I'd recommend to any beginner to listen to and learn as many JPJ lines as you can.
 
#88
wow,i can't believe what i'm reading here.i think anyone who criticises a band like zep and calls themselves a musician is blowing out of their bu-t. a true musician has to be able to have an appreciation of all types of music regardless of the genre or even the skill level of the musos themselves.i'm not even such a great bass player but i know a good well written song when i hear one.makes no difference if its a pop,metal,jazz,electronic song.that doesnt mean i will listen to a song because it's a "great song" but i will have an appreciation for it.look at the pistols,crap musos but produced the best punk album of all time.

to say that zep songs are just a bunch of riffs strung together with boring solos that lack feel is pure ignorance and childish drivel.to me physical grafitti truely showcased the song writing ability and musicianship of zep.a genius album also quoted time and time again by the worlds greatest rock guitarist for decades as their most influential album.

zep songs are perfect the way they are.every member had an equal part in the sound they created unlike many other bands that mostly focus on the vocalist or guitarist and every other member is a cardboard cutout.

jimi pages stumbling sloppy guitar playing is what made him so unique and when you hear him play you can identify his style immediately.same with other players such as hendrix for example.listening to hendrix for some people is like getting a tooth extracted but to me its pure bliss.

anyway,carry on.....
 
#89
I agree except for the stumbling.
If you handed me a guitar while I was stumbling drunk, just stumbling or stone sober, you wouldn't get Stairway, Heartbreaker, Black Dog or Tangerine.
But that's just me.
george.c. said:
wow,i can't believe what i'm reading here.i think anyone who criticises a band like zep and calls themselves a musician is blowing out of their bu-t. a true musician has to be able to have an appreciation of all types of music regardless of the genre or even the skill level of the musos themselves.i'm not even such a great bass player but i know a good well written song when i hear one.makes no difference if its a pop,metal,jazz,electronic song.that doesnt mean i will listen to a song because it's a "great song" but i will have an appreciation for it.look at the pistols,crap musos but produced the best punk album of all time.

to say that zep songs are just a bunch of riffs strung together with boring solos that lack feel is pure ignorance and childish drivel.to me physical grafitti truely showcased the song writing ability and musicianship of zep.a genius album also quoted time and time again by the worlds greatest rock guitarist for decades as their most influential album.

zep songs are perfect the way they are.every member had an equal part in the sound they created unlike many other bands that mostly focus on the vocalist or guitarist and every other member is a cardboard cutout.

jimi pages stumbling sloppy guitar playing is what made him so unique and when you hear him play you can identify his style immediately.same with other players such as hendrix for example.listening to hendrix for some people is like getting a tooth extracted but to me its pure bliss.

anyway,carry on.....
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#90
Bassgrinder77 said:
I agree except for the stumbling.
If you handed me a guitar while I was stumbling drunk, just stumbling or stone sober, you wouldn't get Stairway, Heartbreaker, Black Dog or Tangerine.
But that's just me.
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Indeed. I don't like Jimmy Page because he's a good soloist, and I suppose he is, I like him because he writes good songs. The riffs in "Heartbreaker" are somewhat simple, but they sound so colossal. And overplayed as "Stairway to Heaven" might be (a problem that I've avoided since I stopped listening to the radio), it's so well liked because it's a great song.
 
#91
He truely is very good. The Immigrant Song is harder than it sounds on bass. But, I watched him play on a couple of videos, and it's not just what he plays, but how he plays it. He plays fairly hard riffs with almost no effort whatsoever. His hand is just sliding up and down the board, and yet he's creating great music.
 
#92
Sartori said:
Indeed. I don't like Jimmy Page because he's a good soloist, and I suppose he is, I like him because he writes good songs. The riffs in "Heartbreaker" are somewhat simple, but they sound so colossal. And overplayed as "Stairway to Heaven" might be (a problem that I've avoided since I stopped listening to the radio), it's so well liked because it's a great song.
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Exactly. I agree 100%. It's much different than something like Van Halen, and while both are completely different, both are very enjoyable to listen to. I usually describe Led Zeppelin as being very riff heavy. I've never really liked Page's "showmanship" though.
 
#93
Dubadays said:
Exactly. I agree 100%. It's much different than something like Van Halen, and while both are completely different, both are very enjoyable to listen to. I usually describe Led Zeppelin as being very riff heavy. I've never really liked Page's "showmanship" though.
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Actually I could never get into Van Halen. I always found their music kinda boring. I don't mean to insult, but sometimes with that band, to me it sounds like the guitar soloing took precedence over the songwriting, which I don't think was ever the case with Led Zeppelin.

Also I can't stand David Lee Roth's voice, whereas Robert Plant's is over the top at times, but still enjoyable to me.
 
#94
You can really see how Bonzo and JPJ work as a unit in "The Song Remains the Same" - and this is another thing about JPJ and Zep was critical to forming my idea about what live performance as a bass player (in a rock band) is all about.

Being a part of the rhythm section and working tightly as a unit with the drummer to provide a strong, reliable and interesting foundation for the singer and the lead players. It seemed to be much more akin to a "jazz" mentality (rhythm section + melody section = band).

Since Van Halen was offered - the difference between Zep and Van Hanlen is really night and day. Sure, they both rocked, and rocked hard - that's not what I'm talking about.

VH = 4 guys, each acting essentially autonomously - playing their parts and putting their show.

LZ = Front man + Guitar player as a 'front section' (similar to VH) and Bass player + Drummer as a rhythm section. Two sections working together as a band to put on a show.

JPJ and Bonzo are constantly watching each other - communicating - changing things up - keeping things alive and interesting the entire time while Michael Anthony and Alex are essentially on opposite sides of the earth performing a well-rehearsed show. If they never saw each other it wouldn't change a thing about the show in general.

The live nature of a Zep show, IMO, requires a much more "heads up" and tuned in approach resulting in a very dynamic and ever changing performance as opposed to being able to regurgitate a well-planned show.

That said - I feel the original VH put on ONE HELL of a GREAT LIVE SHOW. So both styles can result in really great entertainment - but as a bass player, I prefer the Zep model.
 
#95
Not a LZ fan here at all, never have been. I have recently decided to listen specifically to the bass parts of LZ songs as I have historically dismissed their music as something that is just not for me. I respect what JPJ has done, well almost as much as I have admired Bonzo! To me, Bonzo was the band. The man could put a groove on a fart!
JPJ reminds me alot of The Ox, not the style, but the part they play in their respective bands... the anchor.
Not to still a hornets nest, but I recall an interview with Eddie Van Halen, from an early 80's Guitar Player magazine where Eddie was asked to descibe Plants playing. Here's my recollection of his response: "Page plays guitar like a three year old with a broken hand". Made me laugh and has stuck with me for a long time.
To me, Page is best playing acoustic guitar and more so with a twelve string. I can dig that!
Fishheadjoe
 
#96
Sartori said:
Actually I could never get into Van Halen. I always found their music kinda boring. I don't mean to insult, but sometimes with that band, to me it sounds like the guitar soloing took precedence over the songwriting, which I don't think was ever the case with Led Zeppelin.

Also I can't stand David Lee Roth's voice, whereas Robert Plant's is over the top at times, but still enjoyable to me.
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Yeah, I guess. But they were great players, with some great writing, and they stuck to their roots, which I respect a ton.
 
#97
Van Halen isn't worthy to shine Page's jack boots. Zep were accomplished musicians and artists with ideas. VH were ... very 80's.
Fishheadjoe said:
Not a LZ fan here at all, never have been. I have recently decided to listen specifically to the bass parts of LZ songs as I have historically dismissed their music as something that is just not for me. I respect what JPJ has done, well almost as much as I have admired Bonzo! To me, Bonzo was the band. The man could put a groove on a fart!
JPJ reminds me alot of The Ox, not the style, but the part they play in their respective bands... the anchor.
Not to still a hornets nest, but I recall an interview with Eddie Van Halen, from an early 80's Guitar Player magazine where Eddie was asked to descibe Plants playing. Here's my recollection of his response: "Page plays guitar like a three year old with a broken hand". Made me laugh and has stuck with me for a long time.
To me, Page is best playing acoustic guitar and more so with a twelve string. I can dig that!
Fishheadjoe
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#98
Bassgrinder77 said:
Van Halen isn't worthy to shine Page's jack boots. Zep were accomplished musicians and artists with ideas. VH were ... very 80's.
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Eddie could blow Page away in his sleep. I'm not a fan of either band, but there's no comparision in the abilities of the guitar players.

I saw LZ in '70, Page was off and the show SUCKED. AFAIC the drummer was the best musician in that band, then JPJ, then blowfish face and Tinkerbell.
 
#99
I come from an r&b background, and I had been playing a,long time before I really checked out JPJ seriously. When I did, I was really impressed, and I still am. As for Zep songs being just riffs, I don't buy it. As a lover of one chord funk, I see no reason why a song has to have a lot of harmonic action to be legitimate.
 

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