New Mike Adler TWELVE STRING BASS????

[mark beem]

IMO - I think we crossed the point of ERBs being considered basses anymore. "Basses" with 8+ strings should simply be called extended range instruments, cos in the basic definition of a bass instrument, well, you lose that definition, especially since you extend very far into treble cleff. This is, of course, IMO, but still...

Ray

I see your point but my 8 string has a low F# which is almost an entire octave below open E on a 4 string. So wouldn't that make it more of a "bass" than any 4 string out there???

 

[Selta]

I see your point but my 8 string has a low F# which is almost an entire octave below open E on a 4 string. So wouldn't that make it more of a "bass" than any 4 string out there???

Yes, in that scenario it would, but let me ask you, what do you spend more time on, the low F#/C#s, or high C +?

Ray

 

[Dave Grossman]

IMO - I think we crossed the point of ERBs being considered basses anymore. "Basses" with 8+ strings should simply be called extended range instruments, ...

I don't consider them just basses. You can play bass on them. They are something else. Nobody has come up with a name that works well enough to become common. Extended Range Bass isn't bad but it's just the modification of another name. I think they need their own name lest us ERB players constantly be referred to as frustrated guitarists.

- Dave

 

[mark beem]

Yes, in that scenario it would, but let me ask you, what do you spend more time on, the low F#/C#s, or high C +?

Ray

The lower notes mostly, but the higher strings do see their fair share of action (chords, tapping, harmonics) when the song calls for it..

 

[Marlat]

Acoustic Guitar

Electric Guitar

Bass Guitar

Extended Range Guitar

Problem solved - next please....

 

[Selta]

The lower notes mostly, but the higher strings do see their fair share of action (chords, tapping, harmonics) when the song calls for it..

I've no gripe against you guys, I'm genuinly curious about this - especially, since isn't the C# pretty close, or lower, than hearing threshold? In no way would I use anything more than 5 (heck, I only use the low B every now and then).
I really wish I could try one, just to maybe open my eyes to them and perhaps get a better understanding of the usefull/less ness (depending on the person more than anything - not a hit against you guys - damn internet makes some casual conversations harsher than they're meant to be ).
I'm glad that people are making headway in music/instrumentation, but at this point, I just honestly cannot see the point in a bass with more than 7 strings. If you want that range, wouldn't it make more sense to get a keyboard? Am I completly off base and need to find someone around me to try one? (I think so ).
In any case, I shall stop being so closed minded/argumentative about this topic...

Ray

 

[mark beem]

Am I completly off base and need to find someone around me to try one? (I think so ).
In any case, I shall stop being so closed minded/argumentative about this topic...

Ray

Keep an open ear for the next Bass Summit hosted by TBer xush in Mobile and come on up if you're so inclined. I'm made everyone he's had and plan to be for the next one too with my brood in tow so it'll be the perfect opportunity for anyone in the southeastern US are to try an ERB out.

 

[narud]

I'd like to comment on your post in detail but I think it's easier to just say that I disagree with most of what you've said except for the bit about liking the sound of the bass in the upper register. As far as the rest, it sounds like amateur trolling to me. Or ignorance. No offense. That's just how it comes off.

- Dave

how is not liking something trolling or ignorance? there's a lot of people who dont like what i do or play but i wouldnt say theyre ignorant for thinking that. now if i had just posted "dUDe, y DoNt yoU JuST pLAy a HaRp" then maybe youd have me on the amateur trolling

 

[jvbjr]

You know why most keyboards are four octaves instead of the size of a grand piano? Those are the notes that are used 99% of the time.

I have several Hamer Virtuoso guitars, they have 36 frets. Those notes two octaves higher than the open high E string just PLINK, like the last ocatave a piano, not very musical.

My 11 string Novax is presently set up as a four string bass and seven string guitar, I am going to try to put a low B on it for the bass and get rid of the guitar "low B".

By altering the Novax, I will be able to play B0 (30hz) to D6 (1174hz), I will be missin the last two octaves on teh high side of a piano, the PLINKers.

Since the overlap of guitar and bass begin at anything over 82hz, I could sacrifice Bass G string, and add a high A string and get up to G6 if I so desired. Given the fanned frets, if the guitar was strung with 10s a .008 should tune up to A just fine. Having had high As before however, i know those notes are useless and just in the way of making music.

Truth is, the best player I am aware of mixing bass and guitar is Charlie Hunter, here is a guitar he use to own that I now have:

It is E A D bass strings, A D G B E guitar strings. I cheat and tune the D bass string up to E so for me it is a 6 string guitar with a E and A bass string, makes it easier for me to visualize. Again, I could drop the bass D string and have a low B and E bass strings. I would then have 30hz through 1174hz covered.

In the end, it is useful if you play a walking bass line AND chords at the same time like Charlie does, otherwise as mono tone instrument it is overkill IMO.

 

[Selta]

Keep an open ear for the next Bass Summit hosted by TBer xush in Mobile and come on up if you're so inclined. I'm made everyone he's had and plan to be for the next one too with my brood in tow so it'll be the perfect opportunity for anyone in the southeastern US are to try an ERB out.

Hard part would be fore me to get to Mobile... I'm a poor college student, no vehicle (until next fall when I can afford one ), and I'm about 8 hours away driving...only option I can think of, if one's coming up soon, would be for me to fly there, and have someone pick me up at the closest airport . Anyone know when the next meet is? And lastly, if anyone has AIM and is well versed in ERBs, and can listen to stupid questions and such, IM me please !

Ray

 

[mark beem]

Hard part would be fore me to get to Mobile... I'm a poor college student, no vehicle (until next fall when I can afford one ), and I'm about 8 hours away driving...only option I can think of, if one's coming up soon, would be for me to fly there, and have someone pick me up at the closest airport . Anyone know when the next meet is? And lastly, if anyone has AIM and is well versed in ERBs, and can listen to stupid questions and such, IM me please !

Ray

No talk yet of the next one, but there will be an announcement I'm sure in the OT or Misc. forums about it.

I'll be more than happy to try to answer your questions. PM me with you AIM ID.

 

[Fuzzbass]

I've no gripe against you guys, I'm genuinly curious about this - especially, since isn't the C# pretty close, or lower, than hearing threshold?

Understandable question, and so are other comments regarding "musical" notes. A few counterpoints, though. The first one is the most important: the *fundamentals* might be at or below the hearing threshhold, but harmonics will be above. A player could tap or pinch those harmonics, but they're also present when playing fingerstyle.

Secondly: unlike a piano which has one tone per key, a bass player can get over an octave of tones from each string. You don't have to play ERB's all the way down in first position! I've never played a string lower than B, but I'm sure there are lots of usable notes on F# and C# strings (on a well-made bass).

Finally: I can imagine progressive music where ultra-low tones would be used to enhance the music ... perhaps in addition to "regular" electric bass. [sings: "...talk about mud flaps, my girl's got 'em!" ]

 

[Selta]

Understandable question, and so are other comments regarding "musical" notes. A few counterpoints, though. The first one is the most important: the *fundamentals* might be at or below the hearing threshhold, but harmonics will be above. A player could tap or pinch those harmonics, but they're also present when playing fingerstyle.

Secondly: unlike a piano which has one tone per key, a bass player can get over an octave of tones from each string. You don't have to play ERB's all the way down in first position! I've never played a string lower than B, but I'm sure there are lots of usable notes on F# and C# strings (on a well-made bass).

Finally: I can imagine progressive music where ultra-low tones would be used to enhance the music ... perhaps in addition to "regular" electric bass. [sings: "...talk about mud flaps, my girl's got 'em!" ]

Heh, I must play either wrong or weirdly, cos I keep in first posistion as much as possible. Only time I leave it is when I need to be able to stretch two frets where I other wise couldn't, or other impossible-to-play-without leaving first pos. situations...see, look at that, you ERB dudes are already making me question a lot of things!

Ray

 

[Dave Grossman]

how is not liking something trolling or ignorance? there's a lot of people who dont like what i do or play but i wouldnt say theyre ignorant for thinking that. now if i had just posted "dUDe, y DoNt yoU JuST pLAy a HaRp" then maybe youd have me on the amateur trolling

Well, maybe I went to far saying that. The classical pieces you've heard may have been mine. As far as comparing playing something on a bass to playing it on a piano, I don't think there is any connection there. They are completely different instruments. They each have their own limitations. There are things you can do on a bass that you can't do on a piano. Should I blame the pianist because they can't play with vibrato? Should a Cellist blame the pianist for not being able to bow the strings?

I love the sound of the bass. I also love playing Bach on the bass. For me, I'd rather hear myself play a Cello Suite or Violin Sonata on the bass than hear someone else play them on their native instruments. No matter how good the player is, they will still interpret the works differently than I would. I play them the way I want to hear them (or try to). I play them on my favorite instrument.

I think the higher notes sound just fine on a bass pickup. The high notes on my 7-strings sound great. I have no complaints. Even on my 9-string, the high notes sound good and consistant with the lower ones. As you go beyond 9 strings, I think fanned frets become a necessity for tonal considerations. For 9 with a low F#, I think the current instrument configuration is just fine. I have no complaints.

There's nothing wrong with being impressed by things played by other people on an extended range bass ... or 4-string bass ... or any other instrument. There's nothing wrong with wanting to impress people. If nobody wanted to impress anybody else, why would they ever go on stage? You want the audience to like what you're doing. If they're not impressed, they're going to leave.

As far as bassist playing ERBs to impress people, I don't believe it. I understand why they do it. It is because they want to expand the musical possibilities of the instrument. I wanted to be able to play chordal stuff on my bass. That's why I picked up my first 6-string. Because it allowed me to do the kinds of things that I wanted to do. As 7, 8, and 9+ strings are becoming available, the last thing I think of is how they might impress someone. I think about what I can do with them do play the kind of music that I want to play. To be honest, I really don't care what other people think anymore. That's why I have so little material posted right now. The stuff that does exist at http://www.unpronounceable.com/ was only posted to get us a gig. I wish I did care more. Right now I'm playing music for myself. I'm the only person that I want to impress.

- Dave

 

[Dave Grossman]

My 11 string Novax is presently set up as a four string bass and seven string guitar, I am going to try to put a low B on it for the bass and get rid of the guitar "low B".

That's a sweet instrument. That was up on eBay a year or so ago, right? I think I bid on it. If you ever want to sell it, please let me know.

- Dave

 

[narud]

Well, maybe I went to far saying that. The classical pieces you've heard may have been mine. As far as comparing playing something on a bass to playing it on a piano, I don't think there is any connection there. They are completely different instruments. They each have their own limitations. There are things you can do on a bass that you can't do on a piano. Should I blame the pianist because they can't play with vibrato? Should a Cellist blame the pianist for not being able to bow the strings?

I love the sound of the bass. I also love playing Bach on the bass. For me, I'd rather hear myself play a Cello Suite or Violin Sonata on the bass than hear someone else play them on their native instruments. No matter how good the player is, they will still interpret the works differently than I would. I play them the way I want to hear them (or try to). I play them on my favorite instrument.

I think the higher notes sound just fine on a bass pickup. The high notes on my 7-strings sound great. I have no complaints. Even on my 9-string, the high notes sound good and consistant with the lower ones. As you go beyond 9 strings, I think fanned frets become a necessity for tonal considerations. For 9 with a low F#, I think the current instrument configuration is just fine. I have no complaints.

There's nothing wrong with being impressed by things played by other people on an extended range bass ... or 4-string bass ... or any other instrument. There's nothing wrong with wanting to impress people. If nobody wanted to impress anybody else, why would they ever go on stage? You want the audience to like what you're doing. If they're not impressed, they're going to leave.

As far as bassist playing ERBs to impress people, I don't believe it. I understand why they do it. It is because they want to expand the musical possibilities of the instrument. I wanted to be able to play chordal stuff on my bass. That's why I picked up my first 6-string. Because it allowed me to do the kinds of things that I wanted to do. As 7, 8, and 9+ strings are becoming available, the last thing I think of is how they might impress someone. I think about what I can do with them do play the kind of music that I want to play. To be honest, I really don't care what other people think anymore. That's why I have so little material posted right now. The stuff that does exist at http://www.unpronounceable.com/ was only posted to get us a gig. I wish I did care more. Right now I'm playing music for myself. I'm the only person that I want to impress.

- Dave

i havent read your entire post yet, but i just want to clarify i wasnt referring to your clips. they were videos of a couple of players i wont mention playing classical pieces using two handed taping. ive heard your stuff before and it is performed quite well and impressive. i just cant get past the sound of bass pickups in that range. that's just me and my beef with the instruments though.

 

[Dave Grossman]

i havent read your entire post yet, but i just want to clarify i wasnt referring to your clips. they were videos of a couple of players i wont mention playing classical pieces using two handed taping. ive heard your stuff before and it is performed quite well and impressive. i just cant get past the sound of bass pickups in that range. that's just me and my beef with the instruments though.

Thank you. I don't know if it was clear in that reply but I retract my ignorance/trolling comments.

That two-handed tapping thing was by Jean Baudin (unless you're talking about Garry Goodman's version which he has at his site). He'd be the first to admit that it wasn't as clean as it could be but he also recorded it very hastily and I think it was posted for a particular thread on the subject. I have heard him play that in person since then and he has improved it significantly. That's a difficult piece to play. Stuff like that can take years to play well. He hasn't been working on that one all that long. I have Bach pieces that I've been working on for a decade that I'm not ready to record yet.

- Dave

 

[john turner]

You know why most keyboards are four octaves instead of the size of a grand piano? Those are the notes that are used 99% of the time.

I have several Hamer Virtuoso guitars, they have 36 frets. Those notes two octaves higher than the open high E string just PLINK, like the last ocatave a piano, not very musical.

My 11 string Novax is presently set up as a four string bass and seven string guitar, I am going to try to put a low B on it for the bass and get rid of the guitar "low B".

By altering the Novax, I will be able to play B0 (30hz) to D6 (1174hz), I will be missin the last two octaves on teh high side of a piano, the PLINKers.

Since the overlap of guitar and bass begin at anything over 82hz, I could sacrifice Bass G string, and add a high A string and get up to G6 if I so desired. Given the fanned frets, if the guitar was strung with 10s a .008 should tune up to A just fine. Having had high As before however, i know those notes are useless and just in the way of making music.

cool looking instrument. do you really think the only viable option for extreme extended range instruments is to comp out one's own basslines? that seems really limited to me.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Acoustic Guitar

Electric Guitar

Bass Guitar

Extended Range Guitar

Problem solved - next please....

I prefer subcontrasopranobassitar.

 

[Garry Goodman]

Blanket response to this thread.
Good morning. I though I would add to this.I arranged the first 8 Bach two part inventions for piano for my Fender 6 string bass in 1974.This led me to purchasing a Chapman Stick Touchboard in 1975. In 1989, I adjusted the inventions fingering for my Tobias 7 string with the low B added. I feel very confident on my performance ability on these pieces on my 7-string and 9-string bass guitars. I am not sure where you heard me play this piece in person recently or on what instrument. I agree that being content with any recorded version may very well be an impossibility.
The video on my site was posted from a file that had been converted in a way that resulted in the visual and audio being out of sync.
I play these pieces as a piano student would, to improve my two hand independence.I applied that concept to my original music and perform a couple of pieces on my new CD where the left hand plays an independent moving line from the one played by the right hand.

The new instrument exceeds the range of a grand piano, and actually has the largest range of any stringed instrument.The tuning at NAMM was Bb,or B 000 to F7,F#7 depending on the day.I think every guitarist and bass guitarist should experience notes that have never been heard on a bass or guitar,or any touch instrument before.

With this range,I can play a piano or guitar piece where it was written and intended to be heard. A first. Because the 12-string is tuned in fourths,I can apply my bass playing experience to play it. I have an instrument I am familiar with from playing bass guitar. As a composer/arranger/producer and solo performer,I now have access to the same notes as a pianist. I can now play Scott Joplin's " Maple Leaf Rag" where it is written and sounds.For my own music, I have register and chord voicing combinations that have never been heard before.I can play jazz standards in the "Real Book" as effectivly as a pianist , and it doesn't sound like a "tapping" instrument.It is easy to read any music now without needing the traditional written and octave apart from where the note sounds rule for traditional guitars.Why? because I am a musician who also happens to be a bassist.

The .004 string has lasted three days now of many hours of playing. Bill Dickens gave me a great tip on how to wind it and I added "Nut Sauce" (TM) to the saddle and nut.

A couple of thoughts(IMO's)
I posted on another thread that I feel it is not right for any 4 or 5 string bass player to feel left behind or any less of a musician because of expanded octaves on a bass.I play my Hofner G/500/1 Beatle bass, a 4 string and love it.Got it in 1968 or so.
I am a Jaco Pastorius fan. I've seen him play about 5 times.
"Jaco only need 4 strings" -to play what Jaco played on four strings.
Jaco had an arrangement of Charlie Parker's "Donna Lee". So do I.
I love Jaco's version. But unlike my version, Jaco did not play the "head"(melody) with the right hand,solo with the right hand while his left hand walked bass and comped chords. I have tried it on a 4,5,6,7,9 and 11-string.To me, it sounds better using a bass with a greater range . YOU NEED THE EXTRA STRINGS so you don't find both hands fighting over the same string. Believe me,I can play it on a 7 string, but it is limiting.

The 12-string was crafted by Mike based on all my input and his ability to make it a reality. When the .004 string couldn't have a ball end wound on it, Mike developed a bridge with a clamping systen,so I could use rubber bands if I wanted to.
I want to record new music with this instrument and it will have bass/guitar sounds that have never been heard before on a bass and guitar. I find that exciting.Every note is audible and clear on the instrument.

As far as showing up to gigs ,or not getting hired because I bring an 11 or 12-string bass: I don't get that. Contractors, MD's etc. call me because I show up on time, dressed appropriately read the chart down the first time,play to a click track, watch the conductor and am polite. They hire me for me, not what bass I use. Being a Union member for 35 years and a union signatore producer, and composer for Jingles, film and T.V. , I know it's about time/quality/production-not strings.

The exception:I showed up in N.Y. last summer to play bass in an off Broadway show. Before anyone had even seen my 11-string there was panic from the producer,director,cast based on a comment by a stage hand who had seen me pull the bass out of the gig bag.To make a long story short I was asked back this year because they love the sub sonic notes underneath twelve singers in the company and the pit band.Al will being taping Leno on Wednesday with his 11-string.I think they hire Al for being Al, not what bass he uses.

The in-line 12 is about making music, not impressing anyone or building something for the sake of doing it.It has been several years in the making.Just like the 7 string,it was created out of my musical needs, not to have one more string than the other guy.