Only $2,000 to improve your amp's performance

[nostatic]

Actually this plug does in fact work as advertised. But only with the new Acoustic 360 head...

 

[Queg]

The issue here is that the ONLY way for you to TRULY know if your EARS are discerning between the 2 cables is for you to listen blindly while someone else silently switches the cables. Do this 50 times BLINDLY and see if you can tell the difference
more frequently than would be expected based on chance. Otherwise, your ears are biased by your knowledge and expectations. This applies to any "observer" in any situation.
You are certainly entitled to state that you feel there is a difference and I certainly respect you, but please understand that the placebo effect applies here in spades, and the claims of the manufacturer run contrary to the principles of physics.
Failure to understand this is what keeps snake oil dudes in the black.

No, the only way for YOU to truly know if my ears are discerning between 2 different cables is for me to perform a proper blind listening test. I have no motivation for the simple reason that

1. I don't sell cable, and could care less about the companies that do.

2. "Better" cables then stock can be DIY'd for not much more cost than a stock cable.

3. Because I personally hear a difference. And that's all that really matters. As someone once said, "If it sounds good, it is good."

Incidentally, installing a dedicated electrical circuit for my home audio has also provided me with great joy.. even though it's said to be delusional to assume that anything in a normal A/C current could be affecting the performance of my components.

I'm not worried about being out sync with science.. I'm sure there are plenty of times when science has been unable to explain a subjectively experienced phenomenon. Doesn't mean it's a lie, deranged, or supernatural mumbo jumbo.. just that the current instruments or theory haven't yet explained it.

I agree that placebo effect and the power of suggestion is often the explanation for the unexplainable, and much of what we believe has no scientific or logical basis... but again: If it has pleasing result, well, then it works doesn't it?

 

[lomo]

I agree-if it works for you and you're happy to spend the money, go for it. But it is illogical to expect anyone else to agree or accept that there is a TRUE (and therefore, by definition, objective) difference, which is what the manufacturer claims. I care because I believe the manufacturer's claims to be false and intentionally deceptive.

No, the only way for YOU to truly know if my ears are discerning between 2 different cables is for me to perform a proper blind listening test. I have no motivation for the simple reason that

1. I don't sell cable, and could care less about the companies that do.

2. "Better" cables then stock can be DIY'd for not much more cost than a stock cable.

3. Because I personally hear a difference. And that's all that really matters. As someone once said, "If it sounds good, it is good."

Incidentally, installing a dedicated electrical circuit for my home audio has also provided me with great joy.. even though it's said to be delusional to assume that anything in a normal A/C current could be affecting the performance of my components.

I'm not worried about being out sync with science.. I'm sure there are plenty of times when science has been unable to explain a subjectively experienced phenomenon. Doesn't mean it's a lie, deranged, or supernatural mumbo jumbo.. just that the current instruments or theory haven't yet explained it.

I agree that placebo effect and the power of suggestion is often the explanation for the unexplainable, and much of what we believe has no scientific or logical basis... but again: If it has pleasing result, well, then it works doesn't it?

 

[Beej]

This is officially my second favorite thread on TB, after capnsandwich's what's the best fretboard for metal...

 

[BassIan]

Don't hate on ESP unless you have tried it. I have just received it to try this thing out with my audio staff. These cables actually Do Not make a sonic difference. The reason you are hearing a sonic difference between ESP cables and standard IEC cables is the design of the cable. ESP cables provide the amplifier the correct current power, even during peak usage, to reproduce sound the amplifier has been designed for.

I was very skeptical as well as my coworkers after watching the videos online. I spoke with the designer of ESP explaining our disbelief. He says everyone feels the same way I felt. He sent one out to us to test and hear what we have to say. So after listening to the DIFFERENCE ESP power cables produce we plan on taking out all standard IEC cables and replacing them with ESP cables.

I am sold on what ESP is doing.

You don't know what ESP is doing. Can you explain what is different about the design? You said "The reason you are hearing a sonic difference between ESP cables and standard IEC cables is the design of the cable." Fine. What design parameters of the ESP cable allow it to "provide the amplifier the correct current power"? Moreover, what about a standard IEC cable does not "provide the amplifier the correct current power"? What is "current power"?

I'm amazed this thread is still active.

My SVT-4PRO's and SVP1600's draw 15 amps at max zoom from the outlet. Measured.
The cords that come with those amps are 14 ga cords. Which is rated at 15 amps. The wire in the wall in a house is usually 14 ga on a 15A circuit. In commercial spaces like bars, etc they are all 12ga and 20 amp circuits.

I measured a 2V drop or so with a steady note with the 15A circuit. That's throwing away power.

What I'd recommend, you want higher performance with audiofile stuff, pull some 6 gauge to your audio rack. Run the power amps on 240V. and NEVER USE A COMPUTER CORD to plug into your gear when the factory stuff is 14 ga.

BOB
A heavier cord is a good thing.

May I ask what you are measuring? Are you measuring the voltage present at the outlet, or are you measuring the voltage between the start and end of your power cable?

If you are measuring the voltage at the output with a fancy "power conditioner", what you are seeing is the voltage drop resulting from loading the circuit. This isn't the dissipation in your power cable.

Still, your point stands that a thicker conductor has less resistance. R=(resistivity*length)/(area of conductor cross section), in other words.

As for the rest of the thread: There is no good reason to be ignorant of the facts here. There is no malice in trying to point out that the extraordinary claims made by some cable manufacturers are incorrect. It is frustrating, though, to see people throw money at something that cannot make a difference. Then, when attempting to explain *why* there cannot be a difference, those who believe in the difference show complete opposition to learning a bit of useful science to aid this understanding. Applying a bit of logic and science to a problem isn't an opinion.

Now, there are plenty of unknowns in the world. However, both electronics and psychology are well established branches of science. All of the discussion in this thread can be completely explained using one or the other of these branches. There are no "unexplained" or "extraordinary" phenomena going on here. There is simple power electronics that is being presented or ignored, and there is simple psychological suggestion by talented manipulators that is being accepted or rejected.

...but holy crap does this ever get on my nerves. Take some time and use the internet to LEARN something, rather than assuming you know it all.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Insults aside, shall I send it to you so you can prove it's worthless?

Thanks,
Cameron

Maybe I'm too thick skinned to notice when people try to insult me. If you have to point them out afterwards, they couldn't have been effective anyway.

I never said it was worthless. If it's broken or defective then it's worthless. At best, it's a competently made power cable like all the others that cost a few bucks apiece.

If there's something more to it, like it has previously undiscovered powers that no one has ever known that wire is capable of possessing, then it should really be analyzed in a peer-reviewed physics journal so the inventor can be considered for a Nobel Prize.

Or it could just be placebo effect. Have you ever washed your car and noticed that it seemed to run better?

 

[BassyBill]

I just had to clean up another couple of posts. Please remember:

Rule #1 "Respect other members". Differences of opinion are fine, attacks of a personal nature are not.

Rule # 5 "Don't discuss moderation issues publicly". This makes a tricky job almost impossible. If you have a problem with a particular post, then report it rather than questioning moderation in the thread itself.

You all signed up to these rules when you signed up to TalkBass. I hate giving out infractions, but I'll do so if necessary to keep things within the rules in this thread. And please remember that multiple infractions can very quickly add up.

 

[hall1k]

I propose we perform a less subjective test. Record two samples, one using each cord, playing the exact same sound (you could use a track played through the amp's CD-IN port to ensure the starting sound is identical), then record the output of the amp both times. Then it would be simple enough to write a small program in C (using libsndfile) to compare the two waveforms bit by bit. I guarantee you they will be virtually identical.

 

[hall1k]

I propose we perform a less subjective test. Record two samples, one using each cord, playing the exact same sound (you could use a track played through the amp's CD-IN port to ensure the starting sound is identical), then record the output of the amp both times. Then it would be simple enough to write a small program in C (using libsndfile) to compare the two waveforms bit by bit. I guarantee you they will be virtually identical.

Also, you could use an algorithm based on the longest common substring problem to judge how different they are, not just if they are different.

 

[nostatic]

If there's something more to it, like it has previously undiscovered powers that no one has ever known that wire is capable of possessing, then it should really be analyzed in a peer-reviewed physics journal so the inventor can be considered for a Nobel Prize.

*cough* cold fusion *cough*

 

[B-string]

*cough* cold fusion *cough*

You should see a doctor about that cough! Remember to cover your mouth

 

[Implosion]

North Korea reports nuclear fusion success

 

[nostatic]

You should see a doctor about that cough! Remember to cover your mouth

My doctor said to take more palladium. Not sure that's going to help...I don't play heavy metal.

 

[seamonkey]

North Korea reports nuclear fusion success

The article doesn't say "Cold Fusion"
But we'll have reliable fusion in a few years. Either from lasers, or explosives, or a collider - in any case you can bet that papers and peer reviews, measurements will be done, and results published where others will be able duplicated and confirm the results.

That's what happened with cold fusion everything published - but no one could repeat the same experiment and get the same results. (it still could eventually happen)

With ESP cables it's just all snake oil and no science. Absolutely no proof. Nothing published.

Believers in these cables expect skeptics to proof they don't work. That's not how science works. Science can't prove ghost don't exist, it can only prove that if someone found one, and could reproduce it, then somebody else should be able to reproduce it.

Believers can boast all they want that they hear a difference with these cables. They just can't prove it.

 

[Implosion]

I'm sorry but this was volunteered and it's too tasty to pass up.....So you don't believe in the unresearched properties of a power cable but you do believe that we will have cold fusion in a few years even tho the human race has been working on it for more than 60? All this time and we still haven't had a decent sustained reaction. Thank God these guys weren't the ones working on the internal combustion engine.

Who knew it would be difficult to reproduce the conditions in the core of a star?

He said fusion not cold fusion. And as for unresearched properties of a power cable. Well, I believe that electrical conductivity is a topic that is quite well researched in the science world.

 

[lomo]

[/B]

This bears repeating. Your post is an unfortunate MISquote. He said fusion, not cold fusion. This is as significant a difference as that between "motion machine" and "perpetual motion machine". What you have jumped on is simply your own error.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I believe that electrical conductivity is a topic that is quite well researched in the science world.

+1. Ask any second semester EE student about the value of these do-dads for a definitive answer.
It comes down to the 'any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic' scenario. Every respondent in this thread who has a shred of EE knowledge dismisses the ESP claims for what they are, 'magic' with no basis in fact. Someone once stated that you can't cheat an honest man. Amend that to 'you can't cheat an educated man'.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

[QUOTE="Q";9134396]To put in isolated grounds for a recording studio and a dedicated circuit so my DVD player doesn't share a line with my fridge? Absolutely.[/QUOTE]

With this $2K snake oil branded cabling?

 

[BassyBill]

I just had to clean up another couple of posts. Please remember:

Rule #1 "Respect other members". Differences of opinion are fine, attacks of a personal nature are not.

Rule # 5 "Don't discuss moderation issues publicly". This makes a tricky job almost impossible. If you have a problem with a particular post, then report it rather than questioning moderation in the thread itself.

You all signed up to these rules when you signed up to TalkBass. I hate giving out infractions, but I'll do so if necessary to keep things within the rules in this thread. And please remember that multiple infractions can very quickly add up.

Just had to clean up another post because of another instance of someone choosing to ignore Rule #5, despite the message quoted here. First infraction I've given for ages.

I believe I've made myself perfectly clear.

Carry on.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

But we'll have reliable fusion in a few years. Either from lasers, or explosives, or a collider - in any case you can bet that papers and peer reviews, measurements will be done, and results published where others will be able duplicated and confirm the results.

That's what happened with cold fusion everything published - but no one could repeat the same experiment and get the same results. (it still could eventually happen)

Here's hoping! Though I doubt it will be with lasers or explosives, too inefficient. Tokamak's are looking quite promising though

The whole cold fusion thing, poor ol' Martin Fleischmann got a bit screwed over by the University PR department and got a bit carried away. Something happened, he didnt know what. He wasn't even there when the so called reaction happened, and was completelly unable to repeat it. This was a prime example of why the peer review system is used (but granted it isnt infallible)