Original bands playing for free: a chronic problem

[travep]

I hear what you're saying and I would agree with you if live music was the only thing we're offering the venues- but the fact is that we're bringing paying patrons to their bar: 30-40 people last Sat. we have a little following and they come to see us play- and they buy food and drinks (some buy alot of drinks)- and we also promote the show and the venue for free as well. some venues even want us to bring our own PA... for free.

The thing is, unfortunately, is that it's not what YOU do for the bar owner...it's what you do in relation to others. In other words, if there are 3 other bands that would bring in 30-40 people too, your 30-40 people become less important. Now if you bring in people like nobody else can, you've got something...

Also use Craigslist and Facebook to put pressure on the clubs to pay they're bands. I'm sure your not the only ones not happy with the situation. This is after you speak with the club owner.

I don't want to criticize the giver of advice but this seems like a good way to lose your non-paying gig and future gigs as well. As a local businessperson, I would not think to highly of any tactics like this...

I doubt that asking for a small amount of cash instead of free drinks and half-price meals would be helpful. The actual cost to the owner of the current deal is very close to zero.

The probablility of organizing an overwhelming majority of the bands in your area is nearly zero.

CD's and merchandise are the only ways I see to cover your expenses.

I agree with this 100%...IMO, the only way to combat it is to produce a new product (CD or other merch) that would be of interest to those that come to see you...

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

same as it ever was.

Why SHOULD they pay you if you don't bring dancers/drinkers in ??? Cover bands do; Originals (usually) do not. Establish yourself as an act that can draw, THEN Charge.

 

[DwaynieAD]

bands are a product that has over saturated the market.

you have to figure out what your goals are as a musician.. do u just like playing out? do you just like playing? do you wanna be a rockstar?

then act accordingly

find people with similar outlooks on music, those are the ones you want to be playing with.

if you just wanna play the music then dont complain about pay and get on that stage or in that studio, whichever suits you best

if you wanna be a rockstar then its time to start climbing that musical ladder, and that means working hard to make opportunities for yourself and it may mean leaving your current band behind as better or more well known bands come along

 

[RBrownBass]

The ongoing conundrum: bars want live music but won't pay for it.

I live in a small town with 2 colleges, so despite being a small town, it's got a vibrant night-life and a strong music scene. There are several decent venues in town and they pretty much only book original bands (people actually come out to hear original music here- amazing and wonderful). No work for cover bands here, but as an original band, you could book yourself every night of the week if you wanted...all for free.

Last Saturday after a gig at a local bar I looked around and noted that our band and the other band who played had brought in just about 99% of the patrons that evening (probably 30-40 people- a small place so it was pretty full)- all of course eating and drinking and spending money... and yet the bands get 2 free drinks and 1/2 price food, plus tips if we put out a jar.

After gas and making posters for the show and the 1/2 price dinners we ate (not even calculating personal effort and investment), I figure the gig cost us about $40. Clearly, this is not a formula for success.

The problem is that there are so many bands here that if you don't play for free, you don't play.

You live in a small town with two colleges and what you say is a thriving original music scene. There will always be bands just starting out who want the exposure, and some of those bands will be willing to undercut you to get it.

Question (I'm assuming that most if not all of these bands play rock or some renamed variation thereof): Have you considered/are you experienced musically enough to play/write material that would set you apart from those other bands? Would it make a difference if you did that?

I have tried to think of solutions to this problem:

(1) perhaps insisting to bars that we don't want free drinks. 2 free drinks per band member equal ~$5 * 4, so they could at least pay us $25... not much, but with gas topping $4 per gallon, it's something.

They'd probably just say no and leave the next decision to you.

(2) my guitarist suggested trying to organize the local bands and refuse to play for free- anyone have experience with this?

Probably wouldn't work. There are scab bands to replace you if the patrons are already willing to listen to bands that will/must play for free.

The unfortunate part of this equation might be that music isn't like, say, being a plumber. Bar patrons may care who's playing, but you have to have a product that makes them willing to pay to see you. If you do, and you can get paid in another town, the bars will figure that out soon enough and bring you back for money.

... any suggestions on how to get the venues to compensate fairly?

There is no fair. They do what they can do, and you do what you can do. It's not supposed to be mutually beneficial long-term.

 

[bassbully]

according to legend, one day many years ago a person with a trust fund played for free and put out free records in cleveland, ruining the prospect of punk, hardcore, or indie bands ever getting paid in clevo, akron, or kent

Really? Need More info since that is my stompin grounds and I have never head that before.

 

[Kenner]

To the OP.....can you absolutely prove no one would be at that bar without your band playing?

I would venture to guess that the bar has been open before you guys started playing there. And not trying to sound "jerkish", but 30-40 people in a club isn't gonna make much for the bar.

I agree with the statements above relating to merch and shopping other bars to pay you for your "product". If you can't find a club, organize your own and be that "alpha" band as stated earlier.

I play in a cover band and a couple of original bands. Totally different bands to operate in trying to find ways to be profitable.

And, the never ending barrage of bands starting, ending, and reconfiguring will always be something you'll have to compete with.

 

[hrodbert696]

Just crunching the numbers -- if we say that your two bands brought in 40 people to the bar, and those 40 people spent an average of $20 apiece (let's say, two drinks and a small entree or big appetizer), then you brought in $800 worth of business. That's $400 per band. The bar owner is paying, let's say, a bartender and a couple of waitresses. Of course, they're mostly living off tips that we won't count as part of the $800, but there will still be some personnel costs there. If there's food, there's a kitchen, that means a cook and a dishwasher, so his personnel costs might be up around, what, maybe $300 for the night? He has rent or a mortgage to pay - might that come out around $100 a night? -- and his utilities and overhead (maintenance? insurance?), which might work out to another $50 a night or so. The wholesale value of the food and drinks might be 10% of the retail cost, so let's call that another $80. And of course, he wants to come away as a profit-earning businessman at the end of the day, let's say he wants to take 10% of the night's take home as his profit. On those offhand estimates, By my estimate, he's got something to the tune of $610 in costs and his 10% profit margin, leaving $190 of his $800 to pay the bands with, or a whopping $95 apiece - just under $25 per musician if each band is a four-piece. Of course, I'm not a restauranteur and I don't know the actual venue owner's books, so the real numbers might be higher or lower than that. That's just a guess.

Getting $15 or so in free drinks and discounted food, I'd say you are still being a little underpaid. But you need to make a realistic estimate of how much value you really bring to the bar. If you asked more than $100 per band (and took no free food and drink), the bar owner loses money on this scenario. That is entirely beside the valid point that others have made that there's no point charging for music that other bands around are giving away for free.

A couple of thoughts: you'll need to draw bigger audiences if you want to make any money. That's a long-term investment of time and money before it starts to pay off at all, if it ever does. 20 friends and family per band is not going to make you an asset worth venues paying for -- you need a number closer to 100.

Second, you're an originals band. Crowds in local bars mostly, or at least most reliably, want to dance to familiar music, which means covers. If your goal is to be in demand for paying gigs in local bars, originals is an unlikely way to get there.

Third, "success" for originals bands is a different deal than "success" for covers bands. The guys in U2 were still living in their parents' houses until, I believe, after their third album came out. You have to market yourselves and build an audience for your music - at a loss of invested money and time -- until you turn the corner and are in enough demand that big audiences have become willing to spend big money to hear you.

I just watched the Social Network last night and was struck by the debate over business models that was central to a lot of the conflict; Do you get money coming in as quickly as possible, to pay off the few thousand dollars you've invested in it, and risk losing the "cool" factor and people's interest in it? Or do you keep spending money, with no advertising revenue, to keep Facebook "cool" until so many people are hooked on it, so that when you do finally start to sell advertising it becomes a billion-dollar business? That's kind of the original band's dilemma. How long do you keep working without compensation in the hope of someday turning that corner and becoming the next Big Thing?

 

[DwaynieAD]

I'm not an expert, just pointing out some observations.......

I've noticed that over time, the product or revenue streams for original bands and cover bands to be a little different. For cover bands, their main product is their performance. For original bands, their main product is the songs. Not to say that there isn't crossover, because there can be. A cover band can sell merch and CDs of their version of tunes, as well as an original band that gets more attention for their live shows than their recordings. But, I'm talking in generalizations, and some of the frustration comes from confusion of revenue streams or products.

A cover band makes most of their money from their performance, and the production involved. They might make a little money from merch if they have any, but they probably won't make any money selling the songs since they are someone else's. And if they do sell the songs, someone else is getting a cut.

On the other hand, the original band's main revenue stream comes from the song and merch, and not the performance. It would be nice if the performance would be profitable, but lately, it's much harder. Thus, the performance is a means to sell the CD/Recording/swag/etc. Even in the big leagues, bands tour to support a CD, and the CD sales may offset the loss taken from the tour.

IMO, as an original band, if you don't have a tangible take-home product, the performances are more likely to be unprofitable. Even if you get the 'big break' by getting discovered by some A&R guy, it still helps to have a recording to give them as well as something that has your website and or contact info.

So in short, unless you have something to sell, it's getting harder and harder to make money from performing originals.

this is definitely something to think about. and i think you hit the nail on the head here..

+1

 

[dvh]

That's why most - I'll wager more than 75% - of the people on this site have day jobs and/or a supportive spouse (or even still live with mom and dad?).

For most of us, it's a hobby. Not many hobbies pay.....

 

[behemecoytl]

I'm not an expert, just pointing out some observations.......

I've noticed that over time, the product or revenue streams for original bands and cover bands to be a little different. For cover bands, their main product is their performance. For original bands, their main product is the songs. Not to say that there isn't crossover, because there can be. A cover band can sell merch and CDs of their version of tunes, as well as an original band that gets more attention for their live shows than their recordings. But, I'm talking in generalizations, and some of the frustration comes from confusion of revenue streams or products.

A cover band makes most of their money from their performance, and the production involved. They might make a little money from merch if they have any, but they probably won't make any money selling the songs since they are someone else's. And if they do sell the songs, someone else is getting a cut.

On the other hand, the original band's main revenue stream comes from the song and merch, and not the performance. It would be nice if the performance would be profitable, but lately, it's much harder. Thus, the performance is a means to sell the CD/Recording/swag/etc. Even in the big leagues, bands tour to support a CD, and the CD sales may offset the loss taken from the tour.

IMO, as an original band, if you don't have a tangible take-home product, the performances are more likely to be unprofitable. Even if you get the 'big break' by getting discovered by some A&R guy, it still helps to have a recording to give them as well as something that has your website and or contact info.

So in short, unless you have something to sell, it's getting harder and harder to make money from performing originals.

this makes sense. i think your analysis is spot on. this helps to clarify things.

 

[travep]

HUH??? WHAT??? This is wrong. College bars last decades... If the bar is full of regulars, then they have a case for not paying them. But if a band is bringing in patrons, they should be paid. Even if no one shows up they should be paid.

Why are you be belittling the OP? I smell a troll? Become like U2? Huh? I think the bar can afford $50 to pay a band. If they can't maybe THEY should look at their business model.

I'm sorry if I said something to make you think I'm belittling anyone. That's not my intention. I'm merely suggesting, as others have, that they'd have to improve their position relative to the marketplace to be able to demand anything. Certainly the bar would be making money or they wouldn't be paying rent...that would not go on for *any* amount of time.

I have not seen anything that indicates that these bands are bringing in the 40 people themselves. You'd have to think, as other said, that some would come in no matter who was playing. If that's the case (assumption) then the calculations would be different.

Again, I'm not trying to insult anyone...just offer an obvious conclusion that if there is more than one bar and more than one band that the market forces will act to some extent and you'll be paid what the market will bare. If you think differently, I think that modern political forces in this country could use you as an market analyst.

 

[behemecoytl]

I'm sorry if I said something to make you think I'm belittling anyone. That's not my intention. I'm merely suggesting, as others have, that they'd have to improve their position relative to the marketplace to be able to demand anything. Certainly the bar would be making money or they wouldn't be paying rent...that would not go on for *any* amount of time.

I have not seen anything that indicates that these bands are bringing in the 40 people themselves. You'd have to think, as other said, that some would come in no matter who was playing. If that's the case (assumption) then the calculations would be different.

Again, I'm not trying to insult anyone...just offer an obvious conclusion that if there is more than one bar and more than one band that the market forces will act to some extent and you'll be paid what the market will bare. If you think differently, I think that modern political forces in this country could use you as an market analyst.

for the record, I'm not offended or insulted- thanks for your response. I have never run a restaurant or bar so I don't know what their costs or incentives are, and it certainly helps to think of things from the venue's perspective.

 

[SteveC]

We have cover bands that play for little or nothing aound here just to play. They do it for fun, as a hobby, they aren't good, don't practice, etc. and ruin it for those of us trying to establish that good music is worth paying for and it sucks. I mean, we are "hobbyists" as well, we have day jobs, but still.....

 

[interp]

unfortunately, too many club owners want something for nothing, and too many bands are complicit in devaluing their own work, and creating those expectations.

That's exactly right. It won't change unless bands start refusing to play for nothing. And that is not likely to happen.

 

[levis76]

Venue owners have one thing in mind, maximize profits. They water down the liquor, serve old skunky beer, only turn on half the lights, hire a soundman that looks just like the homeless guy that was watching you load in, and stiff the bands if they ever intendeded to pay in the first place. This is Music 101 on the streets, you have to get past that to get anywhere.
Here in the Detroit area, I have played every large and small bar/club in the area and I can count on two fingers how many places actually paid. The club owner will stiff you and call the cops if you give him any grief over it. When the cops show up, guess which side they are on? The taxpaying business that has been there for years, not the whining musician who is probably had a few drinks and smells like burnt skunks.

Sorry to paint such an ugly picture, but it is what it is.

 

[Von Felgenhauer]

Hey, If the bands bring in most of the patrons, why not rent out a club one night and throw a show yourself? If it's profitable, you will do it more and more, making the bar owners finally come to the negotiating table. It's a lot more work with even more risk, but if your band can really pull some people out to the show, I say go for it. That's the only way I see making it as an original. The big A&R guys(if that's even the route you wanna take) aren't going to be looking at some band that plays for free in a dingy bar. They are going to look for the bands with 1000's of fans on their sites and the ability to bring them to shows to sell them cds and shirts and what not.

 

[Tampabass]

If a bar wants to be known as a good place to hear good live music, then it should pay for the service of getting good live music into the bar. Just as the bar pays its other staff and support people, who certainly aren't asked to work for "the exposure," or food/drink discounts, or told that they can't work unless they bring in patrons. You want to be known as a place where the bartenders are friendly, and their service is speedy? Hire good bartenders, and pay them decently.

Why should the time and talents of the bar's other workers be valued, and those folks compensated, but the time and talents of musicians -- who almost always have spent more $$ and time and energy on the training and equipment and marketing efforts it takes to do their job -- are expected to be provided for free?

Sorry, but there's simply no good reason for bar owners not to pay bands. Just because they're motivated to want something for nothing (who doesn't?) doesn't mean that bands -- hobbyists, pros, semi-pros, cover bands, original bands, whatever -- ought to participate in that system and help perpetuate it.

Those who do are simply part of the problem, even if they refuse to admit it.

 

[Stumbo]

I just watched the Social Network last night and was struck by the debate over business models that was central to a lot of the conflict; Do you get money coming in as quickly as possible, to pay off the few thousand dollars you've invested in it, and risk losing the "cool" factor and people's interest in it? Or do you keep spending money, with no advertising revenue, to keep Facebook "cool" until so many people are hooked on it, so that when you do finally start to sell advertising it becomes a billion-dollar business? That's kind of the original band's dilemma. How long do you keep working without compensation in the hope of someday turning that corner and becoming the next Big Thing?

As far as business models go, there are many websites that use the bar model to make money.

The Huffington Post was recently sold to AOL for over $300 million and is mostly based on unpaid writer's contributing stories to "showcase" their talents in hopes of getting a real writing job. Sound familiar?

 

[omnimutant]

I would approach one of the better clubs and see if you can charge the door. Cut the bar in for a buck or of the door. This way you will get something..anything.

The only time Bands in my area get paid is when we play venues with door charges. There are a pretty big mix of free venues and cover venues here. However the ones that charge a cover/door fee, usually book about 4 bands that night, and have a house sound guy, or a DJ in between set's. The bands play about 45 minutes to an hour max each. Door money is split between The DJ/Sound guy, Door guy, and the bands. The sound guys always get paid first though, if there's not enough to cover anyone else, then were SOL. It's generally not a whole lot, but we do get paid once in while. Back in the day we'd get free drinks all night too, but anymore, they limit you to 2 or 3 crappy beers. (too many lushes)

There are a few larger trendy Clubs that do Book regularly and pay well (because they have a big door Charge like $20), but it's usually well established cover bands or someone playing agent setting up a large show of out of town bands with a few locals for openers.

 

[Mooch]

This is a bummer to hear. In our home town we simply have to get in touch with the bar owner and setup a show. We are a originals metal act so we book 2 to 3 other acts with us. We get whatever we can make at the door. We usually do a 7 dollar cover. After paying the other bands and sound guy we made over 500 bucks each time.

Only advice I can give is see if there is a bar willing to do this, but if there is a bunch of bars with no cover the same night or your band isn't "the big thing" in town people might not want to pay. College kids are broke usually. Except for beer money anyway.