Original bands playing for free: a chronic problem

[crijan]

When I was in college, the only original bands that were making money were the ones that had a sound that catered to the sorority crowd. Then the fraternities would hire them for parties to attract said sorority girls. Eventually they would have enough name recognition / fan base to play at the "large" club in town and get paid off the door or get hired by the university for events.

Often these bands would do sub-set gigs of an acoustic duo doing covers on the patio of a popular bar. This helped establish the front-people of the band with wider audiences.

One such band that followed this model and came out of that college town (Gainesville, FL) during my time was Sister Hazel.

 

[travep]

Hey, If the bands bring in most of the patrons, why not rent out a club one night and throw a show yourself? If it's profitable, you will do it more and more, making the bar owners finally come to the negotiating table. It's a lot more work with even more risk, but if your band can really pull some people out to the show, I say go for it. That's the only way I see making it as an original. The big A&R guys(if that's even the route you wanna take) aren't going to be looking at some band that plays for free in a dingy bar. They are going to look for the bands with 1000's of fans on their sites and the ability to bring them to shows to sell them cds and shirts and what not.

Be very careful of this kind of thing...one of the major expenses of restaurants/bars is insurance. Plus, the legal complexities of getting permits for gatherings (especially where there's alcohol). You would be getting into a whole world of risk by following this plan. However, the premise is valid...you want to be known to your "customers" in the area and you want exposure. However, if your goal is to make money (as I understand the problem you are having), this is not going to solve that issue. You can't charge people money or you'd have to get into the whole insurance and permit thing...expensive, time consuming and very risky. However, the idea of making yourself more valuable in the market is a good plan...but a longer-term plan (no money immediately)

 

[travep]

When I was in college, the only original bands that were making money were the ones that had a sound that catered to the sorority crowd. Then the fraternities would hire them for parties to attract said sorority girls. Eventually they would have enough name recognition / fan base to play at the "large" club in town and get paid off the door or get hired by the university for events.

In Austin, there was a lot of this too (back in my day). The really successful ones (all cover bands) would also play 6th Street. When they played downtown, the really good ones would get the Bud Light sponsorship...good advertisement for Budweiser in a college area. Just a thought...

 

[onestring]

Make your own gig.

If you're in a college town, I promise you there is a room/hall/VFW/church somewhere you can rent. Find out what it costs. Rent it. Promote the heck out of your own show, or have a business major do it for you as a project. Do it a couple of times.

You may lose your shirt, or you may make a few bucks. But you'll find out what you're worth in the context of being an original band in a small town, and you'll be in a much more realistic position to negotiate with the bar because you'll have the numbers.

(Or what Von said.)

 

[Kenner]

This is a bummer to hear. In our home town we simply have to get in touch with the bar owner and setup a show. We are a originals metal act so we book 2 to 3 other acts with us. We get whatever we can make at the door. We usually do a 7 dollar cover. After paying the other bands and sound guy we made over 500 bucks each time.

Only advice I can give is see if there is a bar willing to do this, but if there is a bunch of bars with no cover the same night or your band isn't "the big thing" in town people might not want to pay. College kids are broke usually. Except for beer money anyway.

Whicha Mooch! We (Breathin' Sand) do the same.....

 

[rockosocko]

I've been playing for over 20 years, it has never been the case where an original band has bee able to make any real money playing originals, at least not without a decent following. I agree, bands should not play for free, everytime a band does it makes it harder for everyone else. It makes a statement that what we do and present has no value. Sadly, I seriously doubt this will change, not when you have musicians who are so desperate to gig that they are willing to sell themselves short by playing for free.

 

[omnimutant]

I suspect the MN scene to be an exception to the rule, influenced greatly by the success of Amrep.

 

[dbhokie]

In my experience playing with both original and cover bands the past dozen or so years, the crowds are too vastly different when you look at the cafe/bar/club scene. Original bands bring in a specific audience of either specific relational fans (friends of the band etc), (or indie fans who pride themselves on not liking the mainstream and being culturally connected). That is unless you have a following that speaks for itself, when you start bringing in 200+ people every time you play original music, people will pay you. The crowd though that tends to come with original bands (these days), tends to not be as much of the drinking/eating crowd, as it is the artsy enjoyment crowd. As nice as it may be to have them there really trying to enjoy (or just acting like they are hip enough to care), they generally do not buy that much in the way of drinks or food. Alcohol and food is where profit is at, at a bar. Playing with cover bands (one I play with now) we will not only bring in 75-100+ people, but they will all drink heavily, and dance, because that is what they are coming out for, to get drunk, sing songs they know and dance, and find someone to go home with. Also your typical original band set lasts 45 minutes to maybe 2 hours..maybe...so a lot of times venues get multiple original bands, a bar looks at a cover band and says hey can you guys play for 4-5 hours. You will be the only band. We actually make decent money doing it, and we interject about 13-15 originals in the midst of the covers, which makes for nice breaks in the music. With original bands the only way we ever made much money was putting on our own shows and selling tickets, or merchandise.

Besides in a college town, you already know that 40% of the guys that go there are acoustic acts waiting to sing their original heartfelt music to three chords.

 

[ABravado]

I've gone home after the last few gigs thinking that I would've rather sat at home and watched a Law and Order marathon on TBS.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I think this is your problem. If you are in an originals band you'd better love playing because you really aren't going to get paid much. I am part of the problem that you describe and that I've seen rehashed on this site over and over again. I play in an originals band and we are willing to play for free. Or for drinks and food. Not because we are looking for exposure but because we like playing. Music is my social life. On a Friday night I am going to be at a bar anyway. Why not play a set and get some drinks? You would rather watch TV? Great, stay home then. I would rather rock out with my mates and see some local acts. Last Saturday we played a small divey bar that we play at frequently. Headlined a three band lineup. Good turnout. Actually made some (not much) money. Gave it all to the opening act. He was a solo acoustic act touring with his wife. Figured they could use the money.

I have no beef with people who want to make money with their music but an unknown originals band (like mine) will most likely never bring in the coin. Demanding money from these places just means more free drinks for people like me. I know I am part of the problem, and I don't really care.

 

[Kenner]

I suspect the MN scene to be an exception to the rule, influenced greatly by the success of Amrep.

The TC area is fortunate in the fact that so many venues have permanent installs in the majority of clubs...so, no PA needed.

One club here takes 100 bucks a night (3-4 nights of music a week) for the use of his PA and the band(s) get the rest of what comes in the door. No one loses.

None music related nights for that club are just his same 8-10 regulars propped up against the bar.

Setting up showcases isn't really tree surgery. It does take time to make money at it though.

<----not hip to what (who) Amrep is......

 

[behemecoytl]

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I think this is your problem. If you are in an originals band you'd better love playing because you really aren't going to get paid much. I am part of the problem that you describe and that I've seen rehashed on this site over and over again. I play in an originals band and we are willing to play for free. Or for drinks and food. Not because we are looking for exposure but because we like playing. Music is my social life. On a Friday night I am going to be at a bar anyway. Why not play a set and get some drinks? You would rather watch TV? Great, stay home then. I would rather rock out with my mates and see some local acts. Last Saturday we played a small divey bar that we play at frequently. Headlined a three band lineup. Good turnout. Actually made some (not much) money. Gave it all to the opening act. He was a solo acoustic act touring with his wife. Figured they could use the money.

I have no beef with people who want to make money with their music but an unknown originals band (like mine) will most likely never bring in the coin. Demanding money from these places just means more free drinks for people like me. I know I am part of the problem, and I don't really care.

the Law and Order thing was a joke... and I'm not talking about turning a profit on my music, but covering costs. I have no illusions of getting rich (or even paying bills) playing local gigs in an original band- all I'm saying is that I think venues can afford to cover the band's cost. basically, we're not playing for free, but by taking on 100% of the costs, we're Paying to play and help a venue earn money... and we do a 2 hour set about 2-3 times a week locally, so between gigs and rehearsal and postering and promotion-- music is my life--. I love it so much that I pay to do it while venues are making money off of my efforts.

why not play a set and get some drinks? I do, every Thursday, Friday and Saturday... and often Sunday and Monday and Tuesday and Wednesdays too (not the drinking, but the playing!)

 

[Crockettnj]

same as it ever was.

Why SHOULD they pay you if you don't bring dancers/drinkers in ??? Cover bands do; Originals (usually) do not. Establish yourself as an act that can draw, THEN Charge.

Pretty much this.

No pun intended, but it's called the free market.

 

[behemecoytl]

Pretty much this.

No pun intended, but it's called the free market.

I am looking into hiring fire-dancers for our shows.

sure we'll play for free. better push some tables back...

 

[travep]

I agree, bands should not play for free, everytime a band does it makes it harder for everyone else. It makes a statement that what we do and present has no value. Sadly, I seriously doubt this will change, not when you have musicians who are so desperate to gig that they are willing to sell themselves short by playing for free.

I disagree with your basic premise...it seems like you feel that other musicians should charge a fee that the market will not bare so that you would get paid more than the market will bare. This makes no sense to me. If you are not bringing something that stands out in the marketplace (called differentiation in marketing terms) then you should not be able to charge more for your product.

I have no beef with people who want to make money with their music but an unknown originals band (like mine) will most likely never bring in the coin. Demanding money from these places just means more free drinks for people like me. I know I am part of the problem, and I don't really care.

This is the only attitude to have, IMO. Not that I don't want all musicians to make money from their craft. However, a musician should play in a situation that is a good deal for him. This poster gets a good deal when he plays out, hears good music and rocks the house. Plus one to you.

As an observation, there is no other business I know of where you can get paid just because you are really good and you work hard. The third and most important component is that you have to have a product that is in demand. This just seems obvious to me...there is no "problem" even though it may not seem fair because your band may be working really hard and making really good music. Other bands playing free are not the problem...the problem is the market. In my business, it's like saying open source software is a problem. It's not. It's free and if a company can't deliver service and functionality above what someone is doing for free, then they will not be in business long. They have to provide value...in this case, usually the tech support they sell...

 

[TheVoiceless]

Venue owners have one thing in mind, maximize profits. They water down the liquor, serve old skunky beer, only turn on half the lights, hire a soundman that looks just like the homeless guy that was watching you load in, and stiff the bands if they ever intendeded to pay in the first place. This is Music 101 on the streets, you have to get past that to get anywhere.
Here in the Detroit area, I have played every large and small bar/club in the area and I can count on two fingers how many places actually paid. The club owner will stiff you and call the cops if you give him any grief over it. When the cops show up, guess which side they are on? The taxpaying business that has been there for years, not the whining musician who is probably had a few drinks and smells like burnt skunks.

Sorry to paint such an ugly picture, but it is what it is.

Its not "IT WAS IT IS" its what we make it. And I know some original night clubs that have been in business for decades that at the least give a portion of ticket sales to the band.

 

[ABravado]

That does make more sense. It's a tricky thing, though, covering costs, because every band is going to have a different definition of what that cost is. Some bands pay to have a rehersal space, some don't. Some bands spend money on "gigging equipment" and some do not. Some bands have to travel to play and some are local. My situation is very convienient. I live in the city that I play in so getting to a gig doesn't really cost in gas. My two band mates are my two closest friends, we rehearse in one of our apartments (electronic drums, Jam Hub, etc...) so there is no cost for us to practice, and spending time with each other isn't really a drag. None of us have families, so the time spent on music isn't keeping any of us from something more important. Promotion involves photoshoping up a flier and printing out a couple copies, Facebook, MySpace and Twitter. Nothing is time consuming and it's not keeping me from anything else. Not much value there. Of course other people have different situations. If I was taking time away from a wife and kids to do any of this that time would become more valuable and I would want to get compensated. Everyone values their time differently and has different costs associated with playing. A venue compensating a band for it's costs, while fair and reasonable would end up being kind of complex. My bands costs for a gig? Gas for a one mile round trip in two cars? I don't know, $2? A dozen black and white fliers. Maybe $5 in printer ink? $10 would recoup our costs. A band driving in van from the burbs, spending time away from a family, that band is going to want more compensation. And they should. There is no flat consistant fair amount. And also, for most local originals bands there is no gaurantee of a crowd. No way to gaurantee that the venue is going to make money. It sucks that people don't value music as much as we all do, but it's generally how it goes. And demanding a certain amount to play? In most scenes that means you don't play.

 

[spaz21387]

in portland even free shows the bands will get paid. they take 10 percent out of the bar profit and use it to pay the bands that night. We have been paid more on free show nights then we have at ones that had a cover at the door.

 

[Marial]

There is nothing you can do to solve this ongoing issue, just deal with it or stop playing out..... I'm not trying to be a smartass but this is the way it has been for a while for original bands and I don't see it changing anytime soon.....

Been playing pretty much nothing but originals for twenty years in different towns. This is just how it is. If I wanted to make money in music I'd be in a professional cover band and would probably be in the local union. I just prefer doing originals and I play for the love of it (some people play softball, dig?). Between paying for rehearsal space, strings, the investment in my instruments and gear, there is no way I'll recoup even a fraction of it from gigs. That said, the more established of the two bands I'm currently in has been able to mostly make recording pay for itself by selling CDs and we turn what gig proceeds we get back into the band.

 

[travep]

One more analogy and I'll leave it alone...

Not to politicize the issue but it's similar to the political debate about minimum wage. Some believe that every job should pay a living wage...so the minimum wage should be higher.

I think this is illogical. Of course, we'd all love to have folks paid to do common jobs. However, businesses have to pay this fee. Do you think that anyone would order pizza anymore if they tacked on a $5 fee for delivery. OK, we might...but we'd go get it ourselves. What happens if the fee is implemented? The jobs for pizza guys go away...or they start working without guaranteeing their wage (not likely).

In this generation, western society has generally become quite prosperous despite what politicians would have you think. Lots of kids learning the arts and having the ability to delay the working world for a long time while they hone their craft...and parents that could afford to encourage their dreams. That's really cool - I will do the same for my son. The bad thing, if our discussion is considered a "problem" as some have indicated, is that it has flooded the market with artists. There are numerous bands in the OP's area that have saturated the market. According to Adam Smith's invisible hands (marketing theory reference: Invisible hand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) this will necessarily drive down the cost of this service. Of course, art is one of the few things that people will continue to do for free...in the business world, you go get another job.

This is not to diminish the art that is created. It's just that the market is not differentiating the free service from the paid service at a level that they consider worth the money. It is simple, really. If money is the goal, differentiate, change markets (play in other regions) or change the product.

In marketing, you can only compete in a marketplace in 4 areas:

Product - what you do
Price &#8211; how much you chargh
Place &#8211; where you do it
Promotion - how others differentiate from other products

 

[Tony Gray]

When I was in college, the only original bands that were making money were the ones that had a sound that catered to the sorority crowd. Then the fraternities would hire them for parties to attract said sorority girls. Eventually they would have enough name recognition / fan base to play at the "large" club in town and get paid off the door or get hired by the university for events.

Often these bands would do sub-set gigs of an acoustic duo doing covers on the patio of a popular bar. This helped establish the front-people of the band with wider audiences.

One such band that followed this model and came out of that college town (Gainesville, FL) during my time was Sister Hazel.

and before that,in Gainesville, one of the hardest working guys in the biz, Tom Petty, did the same thing.
If you want to make money at this game, you've got to have a product people want to pay for.