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P J P/J Oh my!

#81
Bongolation said:
It's usually a pretty severe compromise on a passive.

As I always say, "The P/J never really works as well as Cheech & Chong thought it would when they invented it."

If you use a real Precision set and a real Jazz bridge pickup and switch them in/out rather than try to mix them in a V/V/T circuit and resign yourself to their output differential, that's the best you can do -- but that's a relatively rare situation.

The fatal flaw with the concept is the substantial electronic differences between P and J pickups and the various engineering problems this presents when you try to use them together. Makers try to paint the dirt to match the floor and change the pickups from their original properties in order to have them work better together. They aren't like the real P and J pickups (nor do they sound like them) and they still usually have control problems, notably the "V/V/T Syndrome," to a greater or lesser degree, in which the volume pots don't work properly.

Players will disagree with me on this, but they're wrong. This is an acknowledged engineering problem of long standing.

Active circuitry can clean this up to a substantial degree, but doesn't always.
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This is largely, but not always, true. I have a P/J setup using a Nordstrand P and a version of the Nordstrand J that is humcanceling, but designed to sound like a vintage J. I have them passive, VVT, and the volume differential is less than on others I've played over the years. BTW, this bass has the J in a 70's position, close to the bridge, and its has snarl and burp for days!

I'm a big fan of P/J. My main bass is a Sadowsky 5-24 P/J, with Sadwosky/Nordstrand pickups, strung with Sadowsky flats. There is very, very little that this bass cannot do, although if I were getting a custom axe, I'd explore 70's placement for the J.
 
#82
Here's my 1962 P/J and my 1975 P/J. Honest to god, the 1962 is THE BEST sounding bass I've ever played let alone get to own. I wouldn't trade it for any pristine/original 1962 P in the world. Mine doesn't have a case of V/V/T, more like V/V :eek: hardwired to 100% tone, its just the way I bought her.

Fender1962Bass03.jpg


The 75 is a V/V/T, and is my main gigging bass with my band. I need to find some 75 pickups for it, though. The split P's are WAY boomy and lack mid-range punch, I think they're Duncans or something.

Full.jpg
 
#90
Could someone explain the difference in tone between the front Jazz bass type pick up, and the Single bobbin type :1951) Precision bass pickup?
I understand the J pickup has two pole pieces per string, and the Original P type has one. I had an original P, and the thing punched like a prizefighter. Not a lot of lows, but plenty of attack, especially with flatwounds. I have a JJ type bass, and would like to get that Original P bass sound by replacing the front pickup with an original style P bass pickup, even if I have to do some routing. Input?
 
#92
azureblue said:
Could someone explain the difference in tone between the front Jazz bass type pick up, and the Single bobbin type :1951) Precision bass pickup?
I understand the J pickup has two pole pieces per string, and the Original P type has one. I had an original P, and the thing punched like a prizefighter.
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The single-pole SCPB pickup -- as you noticed -- has more severe transients, to the point that it was rough on early-'50s speakers. By going dual magnet per string in the later P and J pickups, the transients were smoothed out. There are now lots of aftermarket SCPB pickups with a wider variety of tone and output.

The original SCPB design doesn't use a bobbin, which is why people accidentally pull them apart all the time. "Oops!"

The SCPB pickup also has a tall coil, like the Jazz, which sounds different than the flatter dual-pole vintage Precision.

Hope this is of some help!
 
#94
dtotheatothevto said:
Bongo - would you please break this down in layman's terms for us electronically-dumb folks.
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Simple passive mix circuits (like V/V/T) don't work as naively intended.

To varying degrees and in varying ways, the pickups fight with each other rather than playing nice.

That's as simple as you can explain it.

When you take a simple Precision circuit, which more or less works as intended (though not entirely), and decide to add a J pickup in that big empty space below the pickguard and use the three holes in the pickguard for a V/V/T circuit, moving the output jack to a football plate in the lower bout, you haven't performed the act of genius you thought you did.

You would have been better off to go Switch/V/T and accept the output differential between a good true P and a good true J pickup. That's as good as a passive P/J bass will ever get.

Anyway, from a personal point of view, I regard mixing pickup levels as just more twiddly bass-geekery I can do without in the first place. Give me the best, purest signal I can get from the individual pickup(s) and I'll do the processing and EQing (if any) upstream in the signal path with higher-quality electronics.
 
#95
#96
Bongolation, I think most of us get that there is a trade off, you have made the point in numerous P/J threads. I and I think many others enjoy the configuration for what it is. Why are you so passionate about arguing against the P/J's merits? Not trying to rile any feathers. It's almost like a vendetta. What drives this passion?
 
#100
jbassbob said:
Bongolation, I think most of us get that there is a trade off
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No, most don't. Most think it's "definately awesum" until something new comes along to distract their attention.

Thinking about tradeoffs and their technical origins makes their heads hurt, which is unawesome and bunks their gear high.

And the dirty truth is that real purpose of gear forums is not generating gear knowledge but generating gear highs. That's why I'm always in trouble here. The former is usually death on the latter. ;)

Maybe the purpose of gear itself is just gear highs. Otherwise the average buyer review rating on MF wouldn't be 8+ out of 10. :D

It's almost like a vendetta.
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That's an unfortunate misunderstanding.
What drives this passion?
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That's a really good question, if sincerely posed, and I'll give you the full answer some time if you want it.

The short answer is that I'm obsessed with understanding things -- absolutely everything in which I bear an interest -- as factually as they can be understood.

Occasionally I get that understanding resolved to my satisfaction, or at least I get further down the road to it than most people. When it's a common question and someone asks about it, like a fool I think they really want a good solid answer, one I spent a lot of time and effort getting to. They don't. They want more bubbas to wholeheartedly enable them in their impulsive urges to do something which, whatever it is, is probably not as "definately awesum" in technical fact as it is in their emotions.

One rarely gets thanks for saving a fool from his folly which, incidentally, is why I stopped authenticating gear. Instead of being angry at the grifter who was trying to palm off a fake, they were mad at me for destroying their dreams. People! :rollno:

I don't work for those people here. I work for the 1%-2% on the forums (often lurkers) who want to understand things as clearly and cold-bloodedly as I do.
 

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