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P J P/J Oh my!
- Thread starter dtotheatothevto
- Start date
One of the questions was: "What are we expecting of a VVT PJ circuit that isn't being met?"
In a P/J are you NOT expecting the P and J controls to function as tone controls?
In a fender jazz, are you not expecting the VV to mix the output of the pick-ups, which affects the tone of the bass? Why would you expect a P/J to work differently?
If the answer is yes, I expect the pick-up controls to function as tone controls, not volume knobs, then the expectations are met. I am not expecting that turning up a pick-up control to increase the volume of the output of the bass. I'm expecting it to increase the amount of the sound of the pick-up into the blend of the two pick-ups.
Said another way, people expect to use the pick-up controls to shape their tone with the blend of the pick-ups they desire.
So the question remains, "What are we expecting of a VVT PJ circuit that isn't being met?"
It's been put forward countless times that the J and P pick-up controls in a Fender Hot Rod function only as on and off switches, and every time that is put forward Fender Hot Rod owners come forward and say that is not how theirs functions. That they can blend their pups smoothly, do not have a wah effect and that there is no sudden drop off of a pup anywhere in the pup control. So how long are we going to keep saying there is a horrible issue with these instruments when their owners keep saying it doesn't do what their detractors say it does?
In a P/J are you NOT expecting the P and J controls to function as tone controls?
In a fender jazz, are you not expecting the VV to mix the output of the pick-ups, which affects the tone of the bass? Why would you expect a P/J to work differently?
If the answer is yes, I expect the pick-up controls to function as tone controls, not volume knobs, then the expectations are met. I am not expecting that turning up a pick-up control to increase the volume of the output of the bass. I'm expecting it to increase the amount of the sound of the pick-up into the blend of the two pick-ups.
Said another way, people expect to use the pick-up controls to shape their tone with the blend of the pick-ups they desire.
So the question remains, "What are we expecting of a VVT PJ circuit that isn't being met?"
It's been put forward countless times that the J and P pick-up controls in a Fender Hot Rod function only as on and off switches, and every time that is put forward Fender Hot Rod owners come forward and say that is not how theirs functions. That they can blend their pups smoothly, do not have a wah effect and that there is no sudden drop off of a pup anywhere in the pup control. So how long are we going to keep saying there is a horrible issue with these instruments when their owners keep saying it doesn't do what their detractors say it does?
I'm saying I owned an aerodyne P/J and was hoping it would work like my Jazz basses. It didn't, I hated it, and it's gone.
To me, this would be practical advice for someone looking at purchasing a passive P/J, any passive P/J.
Solo the P pick-up 100 percent. Play the bass and listen. You have a sound in your head of what a good Precision bass sounds like. Adjust the tone as necessary. Is the sound you hear as good as the sound you hear in your head? If you were being asked to bring a Precision to a recording session, would you be confident in bringing the bass to the recording session. If the answer is no, don't buy it. If the answer is yes, continue on.
While playing a open A string, very slowly turn the Jazz pickup up until it is up all the way and listen closely. Was there any spot while you were slowly turning the knob that the tone dramatically changed or suddently dropped out? Or was the J pickup evenly blended into the sound from 0 to 10? If it didn't blend evenly, it wasn't wired correctly or has a defective component. Don't buy it. Otherwise, continue on.
Set the J control back to 0 and then slowly turn up again until you hear a sound you think you like. Slap the bass a few times. Dig in near the Jazz pickup, does it growl back at you? If you play over the P pick-up, does turning the J pickup up make the sound more articulate? Play around. Do you like any of the sounds and could you see a use for being able to get a great P sound and to have the ability get any of the other sounds without changing basses? If the answer is No, keep your P or go buy one. If the answer is Yes, continue on.
Do the same but put the J wide open and blend the P in and repeat process. Do you like any of the sounds and would you use any of the sounds? If you do, it's all gravy, buy the bass even if it means having to sell your P. If you don't, well, most people don't expect a great jazz sound out of a P/J just as most J players don't only use their bridge pup. You're trying out a P/J, not a J/P.
Final step, enjoy your purchase and don't let anyone tell you your bass has a syndrome and you are a corporate mark, a lackey for the man, a stooge, a chump, a moron, that you've been ripped off by a big bad corporation and are just another sheep on a gear high who is in denial. Just enjoy your new bass and its expanded capabilities.
Solo the P pick-up 100 percent. Play the bass and listen. You have a sound in your head of what a good Precision bass sounds like. Adjust the tone as necessary. Is the sound you hear as good as the sound you hear in your head? If you were being asked to bring a Precision to a recording session, would you be confident in bringing the bass to the recording session. If the answer is no, don't buy it. If the answer is yes, continue on.
While playing a open A string, very slowly turn the Jazz pickup up until it is up all the way and listen closely. Was there any spot while you were slowly turning the knob that the tone dramatically changed or suddently dropped out? Or was the J pickup evenly blended into the sound from 0 to 10? If it didn't blend evenly, it wasn't wired correctly or has a defective component. Don't buy it. Otherwise, continue on.
Set the J control back to 0 and then slowly turn up again until you hear a sound you think you like. Slap the bass a few times. Dig in near the Jazz pickup, does it growl back at you? If you play over the P pick-up, does turning the J pickup up make the sound more articulate? Play around. Do you like any of the sounds and could you see a use for being able to get a great P sound and to have the ability get any of the other sounds without changing basses? If the answer is No, keep your P or go buy one. If the answer is Yes, continue on.
Do the same but put the J wide open and blend the P in and repeat process. Do you like any of the sounds and would you use any of the sounds? If you do, it's all gravy, buy the bass even if it means having to sell your P. If you don't, well, most people don't expect a great jazz sound out of a P/J just as most J players don't only use their bridge pup. You're trying out a P/J, not a J/P.
Final step, enjoy your purchase and don't let anyone tell you your bass has a syndrome and you are a corporate mark, a lackey for the man, a stooge, a chump, a moron, that you've been ripped off by a big bad corporation and are just another sheep on a gear high who is in denial. Just enjoy your new bass and its expanded capabilities.
+1 I always run my P side 100% and add the J to taste. I got this bass as a P bass with a little extra tone capability. It sounds killer with both pickups 100%. For a more traditional P tone, I back of the J a little.
All this was done in consult with Mike Lull. I went with the Fralin PJ set up. Do you really think Lull doesn't know what he's doing?
All this was done in consult with Mike Lull. I went with the Fralin PJ set up. Do you really think Lull doesn't know what he's doing?
+1
I also find that you can do this at any volume combination as well. i.e., half the P, bring up the j from off position to taste. I practice at very low volumes on occasion and the sound is sweet.
Even if you use VVT with, say neck at 80% and bridge at 40%, you can still do the same thing with a VBT setup. Just roll the Master down to 80% and set the blend 1/2 way between centered and neck soloed.
I'm far from an electronics expert - much less expert in the ways of passive pickup wiring. But, it seems to me like there is nothing that VVT gives you that you can't get with VBT, too. And VBT has the advantage of a Master volume that you can, for example, roll completely off when you want, without affecting the blend between the pickups.
Interesting discussion...In that TalkBass kinda way. 
I guess I'm really screwed as I've got a V/V/V/T setup with three pickups. A P sandwiched between two J's on a modded Skyline Scheff. Love it! My fav bass of all time. Only negative of the bass is the weight on my old-man back. But the J/P/J can't be blamed for that, can it??
This thread reminds me of the oft asked question in the Amps Forum about what speaker "should" go in what box. And many responses imply that certain speakers will work and some will not. And the answer is the same for those questions as with the P/J setup: It will produce sound and it will work. Whether the sound produced is good or bad is strictly up to the user of the equipment.
I never take tone advice from folks that I've never heard. I mean, it's quite possible that I'd listen to BFM or Greenboy (from the amps forum) or Bongolation (from this thread) and think their tone sucks. (And not trying to pick on anybody. These are the names of people that just popped into my brain.) And then where would I be with all their technical info?? I tell ya, it'd be a gear-buzz crunch for sure.
Of course, I may hear them play and really like what I hear. Then my gear-buzz would be validated.
What I'm trying to say is use your ears and your inspirations and create a tone that works for you and the musical situation that you're in.
I'll finish with a ferinstance: I read that Tommy Cogbill, a personal fav of mine, used to record his miced sound through a Fender Twin Reverb that had one of the speakers blown. I mean, that ain't right is it? A freakin' guitar amp with one good speaker?? ***?? Worked for him though.
To the OP, right now get the bass that feels the best in your hands. You can always get some different gear in the future. But to know what you want you'll need some time behind you. Just like with guitar. Good luck!!
I guess I'm really screwed as I've got a V/V/V/T setup with three pickups. A P sandwiched between two J's on a modded Skyline Scheff. Love it! My fav bass of all time. Only negative of the bass is the weight on my old-man back. But the J/P/J can't be blamed for that, can it??
This thread reminds me of the oft asked question in the Amps Forum about what speaker "should" go in what box. And many responses imply that certain speakers will work and some will not. And the answer is the same for those questions as with the P/J setup: It will produce sound and it will work. Whether the sound produced is good or bad is strictly up to the user of the equipment.
I never take tone advice from folks that I've never heard. I mean, it's quite possible that I'd listen to BFM or Greenboy (from the amps forum) or Bongolation (from this thread) and think their tone sucks. (And not trying to pick on anybody. These are the names of people that just popped into my brain.) And then where would I be with all their technical info?? I tell ya, it'd be a gear-buzz crunch for sure.
Of course, I may hear them play and really like what I hear. Then my gear-buzz would be validated.
What I'm trying to say is use your ears and your inspirations and create a tone that works for you and the musical situation that you're in.
I'll finish with a ferinstance: I read that Tommy Cogbill, a personal fav of mine, used to record his miced sound through a Fender Twin Reverb that had one of the speakers blown. I mean, that ain't right is it? A freakin' guitar amp with one good speaker?? ***?? Worked for him though.
To the OP, right now get the bass that feels the best in your hands. You can always get some different gear in the future. But to know what you want you'll need some time behind you. Just like with guitar. Good luck!!
Like I have said here many, MANY times - do your shopping homework and buy something used that your research has shown to be selling for a fair (used) price - and that looks, sounds, and feels good to YOU. Then play it until you decide YOU don't like it for whatever reason. At that point, you can sell it for roughly what you paid and use your newly-developed taste to choose something else that you do like. If you never end up disliking the first bass you bought, then awesome for you!
Flaw?
I thought this was a feature!
Unfortunately had P/J basses since '86 or so and have never been smart enough to expect them to work just like volume knobs. I always thought they were supposed to interact weirdly for all kinds of different sounds.
I admit though, the arguement seems reasonable. If the intention was to just mix the two volume levels, you can't just do it with variable resistors when you have two inductors flying back into each other. Being matched or mismached isnt the issue. The problem is you have TWO inductors with magnetic feilds twisting and turning around them and each inductor is putting out AC voltage signals that are feeding into the other inductor altering its magnetic behavior...
But I didn't know this was a problem! I though the weird relationship of the two knobs was part of the fun of a P/J.
Yeah, clearly if you wanted to simply mix the two signals, as you might two microphones in a PA, you would need some sort of seperate pre-amps that isolate the two inductors from each other. And then the two signals get mixed way downstream in a gain stage isolated from the inductors. So, a on-board set of pre-amps with a mixer. It is totally makes sense if you wish to merely mix the signals without interaction.
But this only makes sense if you are indeed trying to avoid the interaction instead of embracing the weirdness of the interaction!
I can totally see how the VVT P/J config is horribly wrong for some and just-the-right-thing for others.
...some people don't like Guiness.
Even with straight single pickup single volume knob setups the volume pot changes tone as well as volume. GOOD guitar players know this and you will see them twisting the knob mid song between ontro and chorus and verse and solo and ... to intentionaly alter the voice. The volume knob IS a tone control. Guitarist using tube amp distortion often find you can "clean-up" the voice without significantly lowering the sound level by rolling off the volume pot. Also there is typically a bit of treble cut as the volume pot is backed off. Good guitarists USE this flaw. And then use a pedal or the volume knob on the amp for overall sound level.
I thought this was a feature!
Unfortunately had P/J basses since '86 or so and have never been smart enough to expect them to work just like volume knobs. I always thought they were supposed to interact weirdly for all kinds of different sounds.
I admit though, the arguement seems reasonable. If the intention was to just mix the two volume levels, you can't just do it with variable resistors when you have two inductors flying back into each other. Being matched or mismached isnt the issue. The problem is you have TWO inductors with magnetic feilds twisting and turning around them and each inductor is putting out AC voltage signals that are feeding into the other inductor altering its magnetic behavior...
But I didn't know this was a problem! I though the weird relationship of the two knobs was part of the fun of a P/J.
Yeah, clearly if you wanted to simply mix the two signals, as you might two microphones in a PA, you would need some sort of seperate pre-amps that isolate the two inductors from each other. And then the two signals get mixed way downstream in a gain stage isolated from the inductors. So, a on-board set of pre-amps with a mixer. It is totally makes sense if you wish to merely mix the signals without interaction.
But this only makes sense if you are indeed trying to avoid the interaction instead of embracing the weirdness of the interaction!
I can totally see how the VVT P/J config is horribly wrong for some and just-the-right-thing for others.
...some people don't like Guiness.
Even with straight single pickup single volume knob setups the volume pot changes tone as well as volume. GOOD guitar players know this and you will see them twisting the knob mid song between ontro and chorus and verse and solo and ... to intentionaly alter the voice. The volume knob IS a tone control. Guitarist using tube amp distortion often find you can "clean-up" the voice without significantly lowering the sound level by rolling off the volume pot. Also there is typically a bit of treble cut as the volume pot is backed off. Good guitarists USE this flaw. And then use a pedal or the volume knob on the amp for overall sound level.
I've owned PJs from Nordstrand, Lull, Sadowsky, Fender, and Fodera. Some of them passive, some of them active (I prefer active). They are different than a JJ, but I didn't find any of them inherently flawed. I also didn't expect them to sound like a JJ bass. I've never found this magic perfect transition between pickup sounds - no matter what pickups or control configuration. I find that I can get a relatively pure sound of each individual pup, and I can get some interesting combination with some flavoring to taste. But it isn't a perfect spectrum of sonic goodness - no matter what the design is. And there are other variables such as technique and the rest of the sonic chain that factor into things.
TB loves to dive into the minutiae of why things don't work. The reality is that something "not working" usually has more to do with the psychology of the person rather than the failing of the instrument design. That isn't to say that there aren't real differences or personal preferences (for instance, I don't like JJ basses), but sometimes people zero in on stuff and make assumptions about what something *should* do, instead of playing and finding out what something *can* do.
TB loves to dive into the minutiae of why things don't work. The reality is that something "not working" usually has more to do with the psychology of the person rather than the failing of the instrument design. That isn't to say that there aren't real differences or personal preferences (for instance, I don't like JJ basses), but sometimes people zero in on stuff and make assumptions about what something *should* do, instead of playing and finding out what something *can* do.
Are we absolutely positive that the Fender Hot Rodded Precision used audio taper pots and not linear taper pots for the vol controls, even if not specified that way in the plans? Linear taper pots exhibit this quality when used as vol controls regardless of the pickup or layout. I think it is naive and misinformed to write off all P/J's as having a problem based on one particular model that may or may not have some particular quirks due to it's unusual component selections.
I do not doubt that there is a frequency response change that occurs when turning the vol knob. In fact, because I understand a bit about how these circuits work, I expect it. I also expect a certain amount of interaction between the pickups. But I am skeptical of the extent that some consider it a problem.
I think the bigger problem is with what people expect from these poor little passive circuits. Put simply, I think people expect the wrong things from their instruments because they don't really know how their instruments work.
I would absolutely love to see some quantified results of this P/J problem, not just theoretical or anecdotal evidence, but real numerical data. Graphs charts, equations, whatever. I do not doubt that adding a J pup to a P bass changes the nature of the bass, but I am skeptical of the extent of the change. No one has yet discussed or shared any actual data or equations behind this supposed problem. Someone earlier mentioned something to the effect that weird resonances occur or some such thing. Until I see some data, I remain skeptical of the pseudo-scientific babble being bandied about as truth.
That's a sweet bass! My guitarist got one. Too bad they'r hard to find in Italy (maybe coz SX would ruin Squier/Epiphone market).
I'm a straight J-Bass player with the V-B-T configuration, and my output level differences when blending between the neck and bridge is very noticeable. At the neck position it's full and bassy and I cover the bottom end of the band mix with ease, at the bridge position it's light and articulate and pronounced, perfect for chords whenever the rhythm guitarist or pianist gone absent. It could be an electronic/physics issue, or a fatal flaw for some, but it absolutely serves my purpose within the group of musicians I play with. I'm absolutely happy with it.
Having read through the ENTIRE THREAD from page 1 through 7, I can honestly say I'm very excited for my 2001 American HRP to arrive next week. And yes, it's in that Sunset orange finish.
Having read through the ENTIRE THREAD from page 1 through 7, I can honestly say I'm very excited for my 2001 American HRP to arrive next week. And yes, it's in that Sunset orange finish.
my Active PJ sounds just like my active J on the bridge pickup and almost like my P when fingered but not when picked. Its my personal favorite as I get tones out of it that my straight J or P won't do.
I noticed this on the Modern Player Jaguar P/J I bought recently. I replaced the original VVT with a '62 stacked knob kit.
I'm really happy with the range and sound options it's got now.
I think I will make this change from now on with P/J basses.
Bob
I'm really happy with the range and sound options it's got now.
I think I will make this change from now on with P/J basses.
Bob
