Double Bass Palatino Megathread part II

[DoubleMIDI]

I think lower tension strings or a different instrument.
The Palatino has a resonance chamber, but look where the bridge feet sit on the top, it's close to or on the ribs. There is not much freedom of bridge up and down movement, almost like on a solid body EUB.
I have the same with a solid body Clevinger using Spiro 3/4 Weich. I think moving to a lower tension and more stretchy string likes synthetic core string (i.e. Obligato) can make you happier.

That's the way it is with these cheap EUBs. Some more expensive ones try to mimick a moving top and also work better with a bow. But then you pay at least four times as much...

 

[carl h.]

This is partly addressed by the rubber under the bridge.

 

[Horganstein]

This is partly addressed by the rubber under the bridge.

don't have a rubber under the bridge. I have an Eminence bridge mounted right on the body

 

[Horganstein]

Anyone know where I can get a replacement tuning machine for a Palatino VE-550?

Bob Gollihur bass shop

 

[Horganstein]

I think lower tension strings or a different instrument.
The Palatino has a resonance chamber, but look where the bridge feet sit on the top, it's close to or on the ribs. There is not much freedom of bridge up and down movement, almost like on a solid body EUB.
I have the same with a solid body Clevinger using Spiro 3/4 Weich. I think moving to a lower tension and more stretchy string likes synthetic core string (i.e. Obligato) can make you happier.

That's the way it is with these cheap EUBs. Some more expensive ones try to mimick a moving top and also work better with a bow. But then you pay at least four times as much...

I understand what you saying about lower tension strings but Thomastik Spirocores are not exactly high tension strings, they are the normal strings that most jazz players use and I also use on my own double bass. My question is WHY is the tension so tight? with those same strings on the Palatino bass after all the string length is pretty much the same as any 3/4 size bass. There has to be another reason and solution rather than change to lighter strings which will probably make the Palatino sound even more electric or like a fretless bass even more than it already does.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Spirocores are high tension strings, the use of 4/4 strings on a 3/4 scale is not high but medium tension.
The tension is the same on the same scale length. But the feel is different.
If you cannot modify your Palatino such that the bridge moves up and down the same amount as a double bass, you cannot change this. (I doubt this would be possible.)
Al ot of EUB players use downtuned Solo strings (like Spiro 4/4 for a Baby Bass) or lower tension strings (like Obligato for a Clevinger). There must be a good reason for that. If you ignore physics, you won't get where you want to be.

 

[blakelock]

hey,
here's a sound sample after my bridge replacement and SDT-1 pickup install

listen and bask in my glorious technique

signal chain is
palatino - SDT1 pickup - k&k preamp - mesa walkabout DI - focusrite solo - garageband

 

[GKon]

hey,
here's a sound sample after my bridge replacement and SDT-1 pickup install

listen and bask in my glorious technique

signal chain is
palatino - SDT1 pickup - k&k preamp - mesa walkabout DI - focusrite solo - garageband

I basked as I drank my coffee. Nice!

 

[Horganstein]

hey,
here's a sound sample after my bridge replacement and SDT-1 pickup install

listen and bask in my glorious technique

signal chain is
palatino - SDT1 pickup - k&k preamp - mesa walkabout DI - focusrite solo - garageband

Too electric sounding for me.

 

[bassbob]

I'd agree my old piezo experiments sounded like a fretless slab. I like the other file you uploaded better.

 

[Horganstein]

I was afraid of that. I haven't stopped into the local shop here in the Seattle area, so I'm not sure how open-minded they are towards EUBs or if they've got their noses in the air. Think I'll do that this afternoon.

I haven't had any problems finding a luthier in my area since money talks for most of them and since I doubt you need a heavy duty luthier for this kind of work I'm pretty sure you should find someone. The luthiers who are super busy working on very high quality double basses are hard to book an appointment with anywhere.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

Short version:
I'm looking for pickups that are NOT mounted below the bridge. I do not need a preamp. Any recommendations that sound great with the Palatino?

Long version:
I recently got the Harley Benton version of this bass and for me the biggest problem with it is the noisy electronics. Actually I'm surprised that the horrible hiss isn't the number one topic of this thread.

I probably got a bit lucky though because the first one I received from Thomann was very poor in every way. The fingerboard/neck just didn't feel right. It had some damage to the finish too so I returned it. At this point I seriously considered a refund instead of a replacement. Luckily I hoped for the best and went for a replacement. The second one turned out to be a LOT better. Plays like a dream, like a completely different instrument. I think it's safe to say that quality control is practically non-existent, at least with the ultra cheap Harley Benton version.

Surpisingly I found no need for the rubber mod. As long as the bridge is seated properly it sounds great. In fact I think it sounds worse with any extra rubber installed and looses definition. But if the bridge is even slightly of position it sounds terrible.

I did get a replacement bridge though so that may have helped. I also got some better strings and put a piece of foam beneath the tailpiece but that's it for mods. I actually like it a lot now, both how it plays and the tones I can get out of it.

BUT... The noisy electronics... I really don't understand how this isn't mentioned more in this thread. I mean, any settings except with the tone control all the way down produces a hiss that makes it completely useless for me. I've seen SOME reports of noisy electronics but if they're all as bad as mine I would have expected to see this mentioned in every second post here. Perhaps mine is exceptionally bad...

My first thought was to simply bypass the electronics but after giving it some thought I don't want to mess with the stock piezos/electronics. Mainly because I want to keep the headphone output for practising at home. This means I'm looking for any kind of pickups that are NOT mounted beneath the bridge. I don't want a preamp. I prefer going straight into a high impedance piezo-DI, direct to desk/micpre with a split for an amp.

So, basically I'm looking for a pickup that can be mounted anywhere except below the bridge. I've tried searching for sound clips but they're mostly for AUBs and may not be representative of how they would sound on this instrument. For example, the Realist Lifeline sounded awful and muddy to me on a AUB but I've seen positive comments on it for the Palatino EUB.

Any recommendations? Getting a useable arco sound is a priority but this is for a dense prog rock project so the sound needs to "cut" rather than be as smooth/full bodied as possible.

 

[bassfacer22]

Short version:
I'm looking for pickups that are NOT mounted below the bridge. I do not need a preamp. Any recommendations that sound great with the Palatino?

Long version:
I recently got the Harley Benton version of this bass and for me the biggest problem with it is the noisy electronics. Actually I'm surprised that the horrible hiss isn't the number one topic of this thread.

I probably got a bit lucky though because the first one I received from Thomann was very poor in every way. The fingerboard/neck just didn't feel right. It had some damage to the finish too so I returned it. At this point I seriously considered a refund instead of a replacement. Luckily I hoped for the best and went for a replacement. The second one turned out to be a LOT better. Plays like a dream, like a completely different instrument. I think it's safe to say that quality control is practically non-existent, at least with the ultra cheap Harley Benton version.

Surpisingly I found no need for the rubber mod. As long as the bridge is seated properly it sounds great. In fact I think it sounds worse with any extra rubber installed and looses definition. But if the bridge is even slightly of position it sounds terrible.

I did get a replacement bridge though so that may have helped. I also got some better strings and put a piece of foam beneath the tailpiece but that's it for mods. I actually like it a lot now, both how it plays and the tones I can get out of it.

BUT... The noisy electronics... I really don't understand how this isn't mentioned more in this thread. I mean, any settings except with the tone control all the way down produces a hiss that makes it completely useless for me. I've seen SOME reports of noisy electronics but if they're all as bad as mine I would have expected to see this mentioned in every second post here. Perhaps mine is exceptionally bad...

My first thought was to simply bypass the electronics but after giving it some thought I don't want to mess with the stock piezos/electronics. Mainly because I want to keep the headphone output for practising at home. This means I'm looking for any kind of pickups that are NOT mounted beneath the bridge. I don't want a preamp. I prefer going straight into a high impedance piezo-DI, direct to desk/micpre with a split for an amp.

So, basically I'm looking for a pickup that can be mounted anywhere except below the bridge. I've tried searching for sound clips but they're mostly for AUBs and may not be representative of how they would sound on this instrument. For example, the Realist Lifeline sounded awful and muddy to me on a AUB but I've seen positive comments on it for the Palatino EUB.

Any recommendations? Getting a useable arco sound is a priority but this is for a dense prog rock project so the sound needs to "cut" rather than be as smooth/full bodied as possible.

Ask on the electric bass side of this forum about the electronics and why they are noisy, you may even have to open up the side and move the wires away from each other.

As for pickups, god, good luck, it's a solid body stick which is literally just turned upright to imitate an upright. But it's a total heavy solid body which no matter what will pretty much always sound like an electric bass.

You have to try pickups. But only try no more than two after doing research, because it will not be worth your time and money if you can't get anywhere closer after trying two different types of pickups. Buy them used here or on Craigslist??

I can't even think of one that would help anything because it's like putting an upright bass pickup on an electric solid body fret-less bass!

I still am going to post mine up soon so if you want parts or even another one look Forward to my sale posts soon!

 

[Deleted member 271037]

Ask on the electric bass side of this forum about the electronics and why they are noisy, you may even have to open up the side and move the wires away from each other.

As for pickups, god, good luck, it's a solid body stick which is literally just turned upright to imitate an upright. But it's a total heavy solid body which no matter what will pretty much always sound like an electric bass.

You have to try pickups. But only try no more than two after doing research, because it will not be worth your time and money if you can't get anywhere closer after trying two different types of pickups. Buy them used here or on Craigslist??

I can't even think of one that would help anything because it's like putting an upright bass pickup on an electric solid body fret-less bass!

I still am going to post mine up soon so if you want parts or even another one look Forward to my sale posts soon!

Yeah, I know... I realise a 460 eur EUB won't sound like an upright. I've got an upright for whenever I need THAT sound. This is mostly for touring with a prog rock project that requires some arco. A full size upright isn't an option due to size/logistics and an electric fretless is useless for arco (not that the Palatino is great for arco but at least it can be done). So it's a bit of a compromise but it will work for me if I can get rid of the hiss.

As for the sound, I don't think it sounds like an electric fretless. At least not one I've heard. To me the Palatino sounds more like a hybrid between a fretless and an upright, depending on what strings I use. But sound isn't THAT important to me with this instrument. Size + upright "form factor" (mainly possibility to play arco) is the reason I purchased it.

So it's not just the sound. It's how the instrument feels. I agreed it doesn't feel like a real upright but it's certainly closer to an upright than a fretless. I mean, I can play basslines I made for upright on it and it comes out sounding more or less "right" but I can't always play stuff I wrote for an electric. And vice versa. The Palatino must be approached more like an upright and that's good enough for my purposes, even if it doesn't sound or feel exactly like the real thing. It's quiet enough that I can write stuff for upright at home where a real upright would be too loud. An electric fretless would be useless for that, at least for me because I write COMPLETELY different stuff for upright vs electric.

So it serves a purpose. And I'm not necessarily looking for pickups that sounds BETTER than the stock piezo, I just need to get rid of the hiss and I don't want to mess with the electronics because I want to keep the headphone output. If it wasn't for the headphone output I would just have bypassed the electronics and probably been very happy with the result. I mean, I will be using distortion and delay and stuff so it's not exactly the Berliner Philharmoniker I'm aiming for here.

I'm not looking for "WOW", just something that works without issues like strings dropping out. For example, would something like a BassMax provide a strong enough G on a EUB or should I be looking at something with dual pickups to get decent string balance? Are there brands/models that are known to have feedback issues on stage? That's the kind of things I would love to hear about to perhaps eliminate some options before I start spending money.

I tried going through most of this (and the first) MEGA long thread but there seems to mostly be discussions about woodwork and preamp. Less about pickups. Apologies if I missed something, it's a VERY long thread..

Good idea about the electronics forum, I'll do a search there, thanks for the tip!

 

[GKon]

Yeah, I know... I realise a 460 eur EUB won't sound like an upright. I've got an upright for whenever I need THAT sound. This is mostly for touring with a prog rock project that requires some arco. A full size upright isn't an option due to size/logistics and an electric fretless is useless for arco (not that the Palatino is great for arco but at least it can be done). So it's a bit of a compromise but it will work for me if I can get rid of the hiss.

As for the sound, I don't think it sounds like an electric fretless. At least not one I've heard. To me the Palatino sounds more like a hybrid between a fretless and an upright, depending on what strings I use. But sound isn't THAT important to me with this instrument. Size + upright "form factor" (mainly possibility to play arco) is the reason I purchased it.

So it's not just the sound. It's how the instrument feels. I agreed it doesn't feel like a real upright but it's certainly closer to an upright than a fretless. I mean, I can play basslines I made for upright on it and it comes out sounding more or less "right" but I can't always play stuff I wrote for an electric. And vice versa. The Palatino must be approached more like an upright and that's good enough for my purposes, even if it doesn't sound or feel exactly like the real thing. It's quiet enough that I can write stuff for upright at home where a real upright would be too loud. An electric fretless would be useless for that, at least for me because I write COMPLETELY different stuff for upright vs electric.

So it serves a purpose. And I'm not necessarily looking for pickups that sounds BETTER than the stock piezo, I just need to get rid of the hiss and I don't want to mess with the electronics because I want to keep the headphone output. If it wasn't for the headphone output I would just have bypassed the electronics and probably been very happy with the result. I mean, I will be using distortion and delay and stuff so it's not exactly the Berliner Philharmoniker I'm aiming for here.

I'm not looking for "WOW", just something that works without issues like strings dropping out. For example, would something like a BassMax provide a strong enough G on a EUB or should I be looking at something with dual pickups to get decent string balance? Are there brands/models that are known to have feedback issues on stage? That's the kind of things I would love to hear about to perhaps eliminate some options before I start spending money.

I tried going through most of this (and the first) MEGA long thread but there seems to mostly be discussions about woodwork and preamp. Less about pickups. Apologies if I missed something, it's a VERY long thread..

Good idea about the electronics forum, I'll do a search there, thanks for the tip!

I've had absolutely no issues with hiss from my Harley Benton EUB, and I've had it turned up very loud through my Hartke LH1000 through my Aria 1x15 cabinet. It was clear, it was loud, and zero hiss. So, that makes me wonder what's going on with yours.

You mentioned you got a different bridge. Mind letting me know from where and how much it cost?

I put a set of weedwacker strings on mine and it sounds even more like an upright.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Forget the active electronics, think about if you really need the headphone output (I don't on my solid body Clevinger EUB, so I think you don't need it on your HB/Palatino).

Pull out the electronics, but let the piezo pickup in there. Either directly connect the built-in piezo pickup to the output jack or replace the electronics with a simple impedance buffer like a mint-box to FDeck's quick'n'dirty or even better replace the electronics with a HPFpre (the ones sold might not fit, but you can ask Francis for the size of the PCB inside). That way you will loose the headphone out.

If a simple impedance buffer fits inside with the stock electronics, you might want to get the instrument out from the buffer output and also feed the stock electronics from there. Then you can have both, clean output and noisy headphone.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

GKon: No hiss on your HB? Even when you turn the tone control halfway up or higher? I've seen others mention hiss and I've personally tried two HBs that had the EXACT same amount of hiss. Perhaps you got an exceptionally good one! My HB is only quiet with the tone control all the way down but that sound is too muddy for me. I can remove most of the hiss with a low pass filter as most of the hiss is in frequencies far above the range of the instrument. But I would much prefer to fix it at the source and avoid sending my signal through noisy electronic.

I got my bridge from an ebay seller who sells "replacement bridge for Palatino EUB". I thinks there's only one ebay seller currently offering this so I'm sure you will find him. PM me if you want the exact name of the seller, I won't advertise for ebay sellers in public.

The replacement bridge seemed a bit expensive but I figured it would be a lot easier than starting from scratch with a full size bridge as I'm not particularly skilled or tooled up for woodwork. I didn't think it would be a perfect fit though and was expecting a bit of work. Not because I had any doubts about the product itself but because I had my doubts about consistency between Palatinos (things like fingerboard radius etc). The replacment bridge would obviously not be customized for MY Palatino. Luckily it turned out to be an ALMOST perfect fit. I could easily have used the replacement bridge straight out of the box with just a little height adjustment. It was as close to perfect as I could expect. I sanded down the E side SLIGHTLY but that was just to get an even better bow angle on the A string. I had serious problems with bowing the A string with the stock bridge and tried to slightly file down the E but it chipped! Must have had a flaw in the wood or something, I was doing it very gently. Or perhaps it's just the nature of that thin, fragile stock bridge.

Anyway, the replacement was already better for arco straight out of the box. But I decided to go even a tiny bit lower on the E. It still follows the fingerboard radius nicely too so this was perhaps the biggest improvement to the stock bridge. The stock bridge was too flat, even for the stock fingerboard. Perhaps I got a bad one or are they all like that? I had SERIOUS problems with the A string when playing arco with the stock bridge. It wasn't really possible. It's still a bit tight compared to a real upright but a LOT better. Good enough for my purposes at least. The stock bridge wasn't.

There's also a subtle improvement in tone. It feels more solid and I'm definitely "connecting" better with the instrument, especially on the E string.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

Forget the active electronics, think about if you really need the headphone output (I don't on my solid body Clevinger EUB, so I think you don't need it on your HB/Palatino).

Pull out the electronics, but let the piezo pickup in there. Either directly connect the built-in piezo pickup to the output jack or replace the electronics with a simple impedance buffer like a mint-box to FDeck's quick'n'dirty or even better replace the electronics with a HPFpre (the ones sold might not fit, but you can ask Francis for the size of the PCB inside). That way you will loose the headphone out.

If a simple impedance buffer fits inside with the stock electronics, you might want to get the instrument out from the buffer output and also feed the stock electronics from there. Then you can have both, clean output and noisy headphone.

You're right of course, I should probably forget about the headphone output. It's noisy and poor sound quality anyway and it will expand my options considerably if I get rid of it. Thanks for the reality check!

 

[Deleted member 271037]

I've had absolutely no issues with hiss from my Harley Benton EUB, and I've had it turned up very loud through my Hartke LH1000 through my Aria 1x15 cabinet. It was clear, it was loud, and zero hiss. So, that makes me wonder what's going on with yours.

You mentioned you got a different bridge. Mind letting me know from where and how much it cost?

I put a set of weedwacker strings on mine and it sounds even more like an upright.

Just an update to my post above (where you will find my answer to your question about the bridge):

I re-read your post and realise you use a 15 inch speaker. 15 inch bass speakers don't normally have a lot of high extension. Most of the noise is above 7-8kHz so possibly above the frequency range of your speaker. Perhaps your bass is as noisy as mine but you don't hear the hiss through that setup? I often use DI which probably makes the noise a much bigger issue. Have you tried going direct or ever tested the headphone output? If there's still no hiss you've got less noisy electronics than me, that's for sure! It wouldn't surprise me as quality control seems to be poor on these instruments.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, most of the noise is in frequencies far beyond the range of the instrument so most of it can be filtered out without ruining the tone. But I would rather keep my signal noise free from the start if possible.

 

[GKon]

Sorry for the delayed reply. I've worked 11 days straight of 10-12 hour shifts so had no energy to respond.

Yeah, I've heard no hiss at all with my setup, but I have not tried it with a DI.

I do use my headphone jack quite a bit. It's a little noisy but not horrible. The problem that I do have 18th it is low volume to the headphones.

Thanks for the bridge info. I'll look him up on eBay. If I can't find him I'll send you a PM.

I reshaped the stock bridge on mine very similarly to what you describe, to get a better, more even height between the strings, and to be able to play Arco much better. I also had space issues between the E and A.

Also, when I switched to Weedwacker strings I had to open the string slots in the but and bridge.

GKon: No hiss on your HB? Even when you turn the tone control halfway up or higher? I've seen others mention hiss and I've personally tried two HBs that had the EXACT same amount of hiss. Perhaps you got an exceptionally good one! My HB is only quiet with the tone control all the way down but that sound is too muddy for me. I can remove most of the hiss with a low pass filter as most of the hiss is in frequencies far above the range of the instrument. But I would much prefer to fix it at the source and avoid sending my signal through noisy electronic.

I got my bridge from an ebay seller who sells "replacement bridge for Palatino EUB". I thinks there's only one ebay seller currently offering this so I'm sure you will find him. PM me if you want the exact name of the seller, I won't advertise for ebay sellers in public.

The replacement bridge seemed a bit expensive but I figured it would be a lot easier than starting from scratch with a full size bridge as I'm not particularly skilled or tooled up for woodwork. I didn't think it would be a perfect fit though and was expecting a bit of work. Not because I had any doubts about the product itself but because I had my doubts about consistency between Palatinos (things like fingerboard radius etc). The replacment bridge would obviously not be customized for MY Palatino. Luckily it turned out to be an ALMOST perfect fit. I could easily have used the replacement bridge straight out of the box with just a little height adjustment. It was as close to perfect as I could expect. I sanded down the E side SLIGHTLY but that was just to get an even better bow angle on the A string. I had serious problems with bowing the A string with the stock bridge and tried to slightly file down the E but it chipped! Must have had a flaw in the wood or something, I was doing it very gently. Or perhaps it's just the nature of that thin, fragile stock bridge.

Anyway, the replacement was already better for arco straight out of the box. But I decided to go even a tiny bit lower on the E. It still follows the fingerboard radius nicely too so this was perhaps the biggest improvement to the stock bridge. The stock bridge was too flat, even for the stock fingerboard. Perhaps I got a bad one or are they all like that? I had SERIOUS problems with the A string when playing arco with the stock bridge. It wasn't really possible. It's still a bit tight compared to a real upright but a LOT better. Good enough for my purposes at least. The stock bridge wasn't.

There's also a subtle improvement in tone. It feels more solid and I'm definitely "connecting" better with the instrument, especially on the E string.

Just an update to my post above (where you will find my answer to your question about the bridge):

I re-read your post and realise you use a 15 inch speaker. 15 inch bass speakers don't normally have a lot of high extension. Most of the noise is above 7-8kHz so possibly above the frequency range of your speaker. Perhaps your bass is as noisy as mine but you don't hear the hiss through that setup? I often use DI which probably makes the noise a much bigger issue. Have you tried going direct or ever tested the headphone output? If there's still no hiss you've got less noisy electronics than me, that's for sure! It wouldn't surprise me as quality control seems to be poor on these instruments.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, most of the noise is in frequencies far beyond the range of the instrument so most of it can be filtered out without ruining the tone. But I would rather keep my signal noise free from the start if possible.