Passive-aggressive behavior

[themickster]

And here's a postscript, for those who might be confused about what constitutes passive-aggressive behavior. Psychology today has a pretty good article on it that you can read; it might even give me some tips on what to do. I just found this article today.

Passive-Aggression

What are some examples of passive-aggressive behavior?

Some common forms of passive aggression include avoiding responsibility for tasks, procrastinating and even missing deadlines, withholding critical information, and frequently underachieving relative to what one is capable of producing. This type of behavior can cause problems at home when the family cannot depend on a passive-aggressive individual to follow through on their promises. Passive aggression at work can sabotage group projects, resulting in unachieved goals.​

I'd say that my friend is falling into the descriptions I've bolded. He definitely does not underachieve, though.

Where it's been suggested that my responses to him are also passive-aggressive I'd challenge by pointing out that my bandmates are informed of my decision to step back and I've actively requested assistance in specific areas from some of them. They don't really need to know why, though most will already know the reason.

That's something I'll continue to do, as long as they're ok with taking it all on. I can't see anything in my response that's at all passive or aggressive, unless you think responding at all to a negative situation is an aggressive move.

Let's look at other possible responses, though. Here's an interesting point, which jives with my past experiences and my reasons for not getting confrontational:

Nagging or getting angry only puts the passive-aggressive person on the defensive—often resulting in them making excuses or denying any responsibility. Recent research shows that there are healthier ways to confront passive aggression and handle relationship conflict.
​

So my instincts here are probably good. But:

If at all possible, the best solution is often to limit the time you spend in their presence. But if you determine that confrontation is the best path forward, avoid being accusatory as you calmly explain how the behavior makes you feel.
​

Then it goes on to offer advice on the best way to confront the behavior if that's what you really feel is needed. I can't avoid this guy, but I can avoid being in his crosshairs as much as possible, which is part of my thinking here. And my getting out of his crosshairs (as I perceive it) gives us all the opportunity to see if it's just a response to me, or if he's just mentally checked out from the whole deal.

So I feel a bit affirmed, though there are some other good details here I'm going to munch on.

Another behaviour of a passive aggressive that they will say nothing about something that don't like until they blow up. They might also be nice to you when they want something.

 

[Vincent James]

I’ll try to keep this short. Band member rebelling by not responding to my texts in group chat. He responds to the male lead singer....

what say you? Should I bother?...

Talk to him anyway. If he does gaslight you, then you know he's full of it.
If this is *your* band and you're the bandleader, I'd be thinking about a replacement.
One thing to watch about that is if this individual has strong allies in the band and you can him, he might take another member or two with him. Inconvenient, but think of it as house-cleaning.
When you have a band, *everyone* needs to be on board and communicating with each other 100%.
In short, get rid of the children.

 

[Dave Neal]

A band AKA a team is not for everybody. Some guys are simply not team players and you should give him the boot. I'll take a stab and guess the guy is a guitar player with an inflated, sensitive ego and your hurt his fee fee's.

 

[texasgreg]

Him or me. If it’s him, find a new band.

 

[moproducer]

Don't mean to sound callous or unforgiving, but there's evidence of an emotional/relationship problem here. He has an issue with any authority you may have in the band. It's his problem, God only knows why.

I've been where you are. Short answer, I left the band and never looked back. Life's too short for such bs, and there's no gig paying enough to make it worth the blood pressure.

He'll likely do it to the next guy, unless your band comes together and confronts him. Ask your band: What are you worth to them?

 

[howlback]

I recently had to quit a group (shortly after joining) because of the way the singer talked to the other musicians. Even though the singer was nothing but nice to me (because I was the newest member), I had the overwhelming feeling that once the honeymoon period was over that they would eventually treat me the same way. They did exactly that and I quit after the first strike.

One of my peers told me this:
"If the group has had more that 5 line-up changes, be cautious...
More than 10 line-up changes, run..."

 

[Ernest Story]

I’ll try to keep this short. Band member rebelling by not responding to my texts in group chat. He responds to the male lead singer.

it’s not a perception on my part; everyone has complained to me about it. The problem is they complain to me. By default I do almost all of the administrative work, etc.

Once I recognized this as passive-aggressive stuff aimed at me, I texted the singer and asked him to handle group announcements, etc. he agreed. I then told the band I was handing that over and the problem member gave an enthusiastic thumbs up.

The drummer suggests I have a talk with this guy. Ordinarily I agree that open communication is key, but my experience with p/a people is that’s just an opportunity for them to gaslight you, which they will do by telling you it’s your imagination. Again, the whole band is seeing this.

not sure how I’ll ultimately move forward. I don’t want to add drama and am inclined to just pull back and let them figure out how to drive the car. I’m not inclined to waste any more energy on this.

what say you? Should I bother?

start a new band with everyone but him, change the name and get a singer who plays an instrument...

 

[villegastx]

Deny knowing the guy before, make it look like an accident and hire another member.
...repeat as needed.

 

[gwreid]

Keep doing what you're doing and ignore him. If you want some fun, drop him from your group texts. If he notices and says something, just tell him he never responded so you assumed he wasn't interested in what you had to say. Play his game, only better.

 

[Behindthedrums]

Being the cynical type, I view these passive aggressive characters as "control freaks", that simply enjoy manipulating people, in one respect or another. My advice, either plumb for the dismissal of this guy, or leave, because, this guy will create issues, as long as he's in the band. If and when he's dismissed, let him KNOW it was his "immature games", that cost him his place.

 

[matthewlevy]

I love seeing your post. And it sounds toxic. Absolutely needs to be addressed. Interpersonal dynamics are just as much an important part of being in a band and performing. I wrote an article and published a video on this that might be useful for you. Links below and feel free to PM or email me from the site if you want to chat. Called How to Get results and Be Great with People. Article and Video here: Get Results and Be Great with People - Results Management Group

 

[g4string]

Here’s my take on this….

Most bands just can’t function as a true democracy if someone is doing the bulk of the heavy lifting. And from what you describe, this sounds like your band. Instead of embodying the idea that everyone has an equal say, you have to look at this like you would your job. For example, in this scenario, you’re the boss, no matter if it was by choice or default. You’re the boss. You cant expect your employees (band members) to do boss type things…..especially when it comes to personality issues and the possible firing of someone. I mean, as a group, just like on the job, you the boss can work together with the other members to make decisions together, brainstorm, etc. But in the end, the hard decisions that need to be made are to made by you.

So in this case you have a couple of options….(1) tell the other members you’re firing the offensive member. Take no grief over this. If you get grief, I would kindly remind the other members about all of the BL things you do. If they have an issue with you making this decision on your own, then they’ll have to make the decision to stay or go. Then tell the offensive member he’s done. Pack it and go. (2) you can relinquish control to the other members, but the problem wasn’t really solved. You still have toxicity in you’re group. And now, you have no clear leadership. Expect a slow burn to decay if you go down this path. (3) and always, you can be the one to walk away. You’ll have to make the decision if you’re ok with starting over. If not, then #1 is the best choice.

 

[SolarisMinor]

My $0.02, my band is my zen space, my joy. The only thing better is my relationship with my wife. I wouldn't stand for it. They go or I go. End of story. I have had to deal with this issue: my guitarist went completely bipolar. This was a guy I had known for years. We served in the Marines together and started a project when we got out. Years into it, he became bipolar. It was almost overnight. At the time we did not know what was going on but it tore our band to pieces. We stayed friends as we were like brothers, and years later he was diagnosed, medicated and is now back to normal. He took ownership for destroying our project, but can anyone really blame him? It was a bona fide chemical imbalance.

These days, when I am working in a project, if I even get a whiff of psychosis, neurosis, mental illness, P/A behavior or any BS like that, I'm out. If I have time invested, I'll give the group the "They go or I go" option. My limit for nonsense is very, very low.

I am too old to deal with anymore of that crap, be anyone's therapist, or risk jail for smashing some moron in the face. I work too many hours with idiots (higher education) to deal with them in my off time. Music is my zen space, violate that space at your peril.

 

[g4string]

My $0.02, my band is my zen space, my joy. The only thing better is my relationship with my wife. I wouldn't stand for it. They go or I go. End of story. I have had to deal with this issue: my guitarist went completely bipolar. This was a guy I had known for years. We served in the Marines together and started a project when we got out. Years into it, he became bipolar. It was almost overnight. At the time we did not know what was going on but it tore our band to pieces. We stayed friends as we were like brothers, and years later he was diagnosed, medicated and is now back to normal. He took ownership for destroying our project, but can anyone really blame him? It was a bona fide chemical imbalance.

These days, when I am working in a project, if I even get a whiff of psychosis, neurosis, mental illness, P/A behavior or any BS like that, I'm out. If I have time invested, I'll give the group the "They go or I go" option. My limit for nonsense is very, very low.

I am too old to deal with anymore of that crap, be anyone's therapist, or risk jail for smashing some moron in the face. I work too many hours with idiots (higher education) to deal with them in my off time. Music is my zen space, violate that space at your peril.

yep.

 

[Michael Favata]

Just read an interview with Liberty DeVitto (ex drummer of Billy Joel) he was Joel’s drummer for 30 years. 1976-2006. Then one day without notice or discussion Liberty found out he was no longer the drummer. He was pissed. Billy was pissed. Both were too stubborn to call each other and discuss the perceived issue Joel had with Liberty that ended their friendship and collaboration. Both were too stubborn to pick up the phone. (I think DeVitto is an awesome drummer btw)
Skip ahead many years later to a couple of years ago and DeVitto decides life’s to short and he will email his old friend. He didn’t care anymore why he was let go. Whatever the reason he just wanted his old friend back in his life. Well Billy responded positively to the email. It was water under “The Bridge” lol for him too. They met for lunch and talked about everything but music and the band. Old friends catching up on family and friends and kids and life.
Well sometime later with their friendship reestablished he finally asked Billy what happened. Well what Joel told Liberty about why he let him go was not true at all. If Liberty had asked Billy or vice-versa they could have talked it out. Maybe even made new music together. And still had each other’s friendship. Maybe there’s something to be learned here.
Bottom line. It’s possible this guy who is acting like a jerk is perceiving something inaccurately and a simple conversation could clear the air.
Just a thought.

 

[TJL]

Up to now I have been the default bandleader. Someone else is going to need to start booking shows, vetting venues, crafting set lists, sponsoring ads, maintaining our mailing list, etc.

If I step back I’m stepping all the way back.

Sounds like you are putting out some vibes with your ultimatum. With your band member doing the same thing, nothing good can come of it. Best to just chill, and let time heal the situation. I work with a fellow that I don't particularly like, and he has given me the cold shoulder as well. We show up at the gigs, do the job, and stay out of each other's way. Nobody in the band is even aware of the dynamic, and it does not affect the music in any way. Putting your "feelings" on the back burner, and not making a production of the head butting is the best way to deal with it. Doing this leads to less stress, less resentment, and a better product in the end. Don't bring the rest of the band into your problems, or you might just find yourself out of the band instead of the other guy.

 

[LBS-bass]

My $0.02, my band is my zen space, my joy. The only thing better is my relationship with my wife. I wouldn't stand for it. They go or I go. End of story. I have had to deal with this issue: my guitarist went completely bipolar. This was a guy I had known for years. We served in the Marines together and started a project when we got out. Years into it, he became bipolar. It was almost overnight. At the time we did not know what was going on but it tore our band to pieces. We stayed friends as we were like brothers, and years later he was diagnosed, medicated and is now back to normal. He took ownership for destroying our project, but can anyone really blame him? It was a bona fide chemical imbalance.

These days, when I am working in a project, if I even get a whiff of psychosis, neurosis, mental illness, P/A behavior or any BS like that, I'm out. If I have time invested, I'll give the group the "They go or I go" option. My limit for nonsense is very, very low.

I am too old to deal with anymore of that crap, be anyone's therapist, or risk jail for smashing some moron in the face. I work too many hours with idiots (higher education) to deal with them in my off time. Music is my zen space, violate that space at your peril.

Been there done that; there's a solid reason we decided not to play with our previous drummer and change the direction of the band.

I'm very much like you described; not a fan of drama or BS and when I find it lurking in a band situation somewhere, my tolerance is very low. That it's happening in the band, with three people who have spent years together and done a ton of good work together, is very disheartening. But I'm not interested in picking up my ball and going home, or rage quitting, or any of a half-dozen other responses that would add fuel to the idea that I'm just after control, and if I can't have it, I'm going to stomp my feet and throw a tantrum.

Because that sort of response is the drama I think someone like this wants to be able to point to so they can say, "yes, now we see where the problem is."

Right now there's zero drama except for one person who doesn't do what he needs to do 100% of the time. I'm not going to escalate that, whatever it is, into a major disembowelment of this band. But I am going to give the guy an opportunity to recognize that his behavior has been noted and that his choices are to continue to behave that way and show himself to be generally disinterested, or he can shape up and start responding which will show he has a problem specific to me, which I can then sort out how to address.

If he continues to show disinterest, it's an easy path. We just talk to him as a group and ask him if he's played out on the group and wanting to move on. If he shapes up, then I have some other things to think about, which will involve how much I want to begin doing for them again and, if the answer is not much, how much I'm willing to be ok with whatever decisions they make as a group.

So in a sense it's a potential slow-walk to "him or me," predicated on how he responds to some changes. But it also has the potential to work out.

 

[NYJoe2013]

I’ll try to keep this short. Band member rebelling by not responding to my texts in group chat. He responds to the male lead singer.

it’s not a perception on my part; everyone has complained to me about it. The problem is they complain to me. By default I do almost all of the administrative work, etc.

Once I recognized this as passive-aggressive stuff aimed at me, I texted the singer and asked him to handle group announcements, etc. he agreed. I then told the band I was handing that over and the problem member gave an enthusiastic thumbs up.

The drummer suggests I have a talk with this guy. Ordinarily I agree that open communication is key, but my experience with p/a people is that’s just an opportunity for them to gaslight you, which they will do by telling you it’s your imagination. Again, the whole band is seeing this.

not sure how I’ll ultimately move forward. I don’t want to add drama and am inclined to just pull back and let them figure out how to drive the car. I’m not inclined to waste any more energy on this.

what say you? Should I bother?

P/A behavior is a reflection of the individual demonstrating it, not you. I’ve found there’s not a lot that can counter it if the offending individual is unaware or unwilling to accept constructive thinking. There one in one of th bands I play with; my solution- for my own peace of mind- has been to temper my expectations. And yes that can become difficult too! We could each prob write yards and yards of band dynamic stuff. My simple advice is to be aware and compassionate of others. I’m hardly perfect myself. Hang in there!!

 

[LBS-bass]

P/A behavior is a reflection of the individual demonstrating it, not you. I’ve found there’s not a lot that can counter it if the offending individual is unaware or unwilling to accept constructive thinking.

This is my experience too and the article I posted appears to agree. The advice there is that it's best to avoid that person, if possible. But obviously I can't avoid him and still play in a band with him, too. So I have to change my expectations, and since I'd been involved with trying to herd all the cats, I have to stop frustrating myself by attempting to herd a cat that will not be herded.

Having to deal with this on a repeated basis is way disproportionately stressful for me. I'm trying to deal with getting things coordinated when we all have busy lives and changing calendars, and if one person can't be bothered to give me answers then the thing I'm trying to arrange gets hung up and stays unresolved. I don't like unresolved issues and I really don't like finding out a week later that we could have done a gig on Jan 21, but someone else who was free on that day now has plans.

So, I think that if I can get someone else to herd the cats, it may accomplish a couple of things: 1) at least one other person will understand the frustration it causes and 2) the problem member may fall into line. It'd be sweet justice to ask him to do it, but he's never displayed any willingness to do anything beyond learning his parts and coming out to play. So that would be a suspicious move and I don't really need to come under additional suspicion for being any of the dozen or so things I've been accused of in this thread (file that one under 'manipulative.")

As it is, yes I am hoping to manipulate the situation in a way that will elicit more information about what he's really bothered by. But that's a side-effect of doing what I need to do in order to keep my own sanity here. Hopefully it helps us resolve things in a calm and non-dramatic manner.

 

[Merlin James]

Time to replace that person
once you take the fun out of something you all love to do..................
well, just don't.......................... there are thousands of fish in the sea Music should be FUN......NOT AGGRAVATING.................