Passive-aggressive behavior

[nick4bass]

I stopped following this thread, but checked in hopefully to see if there was any resolution. When I'm pushed enough, I can be enough of a you-know-what to force a conclusion. I'd probably try something like sending out a group text "we have a potential gig on this date, I'm accepting it unless you let me know you can't do it" or scheduling rehearsal, or whatever. Then follow through, forget about the other ignored texts and push forward. I know, bad idea.

 

[LBS-bass]

I stopped following this thread, but checked in hopefully to see if there was any resolution. When I'm pushed enough, I can be enough of a you-know-what to force a conclusion. I'd probably try something like sending out a group text "we have a potential gig on this date, I'm accepting it unless you let me know you can't do it" or scheduling rehearsal, or whatever. Then follow through, forget about the other ignored texts and push forward. I know, bad idea.

Oh, when I tried something like that, both he and the LS told me I was being too pushy. That was quite a long time ago and I haven't really done anything remotely demanding since then, but these things stick to you like glue. Might work for you, but for me it's just another nail in this coffin, I suspect.

 

[bertthebassist]

does P/A have a thing for the new LS? Is she good looking? He may have an interest and not even know it.
Based on some of your other posts, things seemed to start falling apart when she arrived.
Is she running her own thing behind your back and P/A is all in?
That may give us the "why he is doing the no-response thing with you", that seems to be evading us.

 

[LBS-bass]

does P/A have a thing for the new LS? Is she good looking? He may have an interest and not even know it.
Based on some of your other posts, things seemed to start falling apart when she arrived.
Is she running her own thing behind your back and P/A is all in?
That may give us the "why he is doing the no-response thing with you", that seems to be evading us.

To clear up confusion, I've sort of been quiet about roles because it gets identifying. But the new member is not a singer, she's nice but very married and quite happily so, and we're in frequent contact; he does not seem to be in social contact with anyone else in the band. The LS is male, he is the other of the three core members.

The dynamic of the band did change when she came in, and it was discussed beforehand. They are all natural ear players, she is not. She doesn't improvise well and needs to learn her parts before she comes in; can't just mess around with it in a group setting and then refine it later. That's a big departure from how we'd worked together in the past, but we all agreed to bring her on because she's a good player and she does her work. What she brings in is solid. So yes, things have changed. If you were following along back then, you know I was quite concerned about that.

To what degree he might resent not being able to just screw around during our rehearsal times and have fun with jams the way we used to, I don't know. It seems like a stupid thing to destroy a band over, especially a band that sounds as good as this one. But people are weird.

 

[bertthebassist]

maybe he enjoyed "the good ole days" when he could screw around during rehearsal time, and now, it is becoming a job with expectations

 

[51PRI]

......Why is it ok for that guy to make a mess of everything by not responding to requests for availability,.............

It's not ok...I've said so in this thread.

 

[LBS-bass]

maybe he enjoyed "the good ole days" when he could screw around during rehearsal time, and now, it is becoming a job with expectations

If that's the case then everyone's going to have to decide what they want, and figure it out. This is the reason I'm in four different bands; if one of them implodes it doesn't rock my world.

I wanted us to put together a good band that could do good shows; just screwing around in the garage was never going to be an option for me. At one point the LS said (when we were discussing not being able to get the drummer I wanted) that maybe this guy would have been more happy as an acoustic trio. I said, "then I'm out, because I am not going out of this business the same way I came in, without a full band. That's totally not satisfying for me."

I'm a bass player; locking in with a drummer is what I do. So maybe that guy would be happier singing a bunch of CSNY tunes with no drummer and playing coffee houses somewhere, but I wouldn't. That doesn't really bode for a great future for either of us if we try to keep things together.

On the other hand, it'd be really hard for him to sing "Message in a Bottle" without a drummer, so who knows what he wants?

 

[51PRI]

That appears accurate.

The laid-back people don't seem to have any problems and would probably love for things to just keep rolling along as they are, but they're also annoyed that this guy won't respond to me. However, they express that annoyance by texting me and asking me if I've heard from him, do I know why he isn't texting back, etc. That, in turn, is annoying for me because I don't know any more than they do, but they seem to expect me to fix it.

When I ask them to @ him themselves, he responds to them. He also responds to them when they have an initial question, such as the LS being contacted by a venue recently and wanting to know if we were available. He was on top of that one within minutes. Following day I ask about a different date and we're back to crickets..............

Based on this it's pretty obvious that he has a problem with you personally, whatever that is

Oh, when I tried something like that, both he and the LS told me I was being too pushy.........

Are you? Are you being too pushy? Is that the whole problem here?

 

[DJ Bebop]

If that's the case then everyone's going to have to decide what they want, and figure it out. This is the reason I'm in four different bands; if one of them implodes it doesn't rock my world.

I wanted us to put together a good band that could do good shows; just screwing around in the garage was never going to be an option for me. At one point the LS said (when we were discussing not being able to get the drummer I wanted) that maybe this guy would have been more happy as an acoustic trio. I said, "then I'm out, because I am not going out of this business the same way I came in, without a full band. That's totally not satisfying for me."

I'm a bass player; locking in with a drummer is what I do. So maybe that guy would be happier singing a bunch of CSNY tunes with no drummer and playing coffee houses somewhere, but I wouldn't. That doesn't really bode for a great future for either of us if we try to keep things together.

On the other hand, it'd be really hard for him to sing "Message in a Bottle" without a drummer, so who knows what he wants?

Kidding

 

[LBS-bass]

Kidding

If he wants to do that I’m also out

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Are you? Are you being too pushy? Is that the whole problem here?

I for one don't see how expecting somebody to respond regarding their availability within a reasonable timeframe is being pushy. If you already think that such a failure to respond is "not OK," as you say above, then that must be at least part of the problem, no? Possibly even the bulk of it, or even the whole thing? So how can the OP possibly be the "whole problem"?

 

[LBS-bass]

I asked them once if they could get back to me within two hours because someone was waiting. They didn’t like that so I never asked for a time frame again. I guess 51 wants to see what he wants to see so he’s on ignore now, no point arguing with someone who is not listening. So if that’s being pushy then the answer is yes.

 

[bassicmike]

He's a very good player and an integral part of our overall sound, because he's also a great natural harmonist, as are the other two core members (me and the LS), and the band is built on our ability to harmonize and play at an expert level by ear.

In 40+ years I've not met many players with the ear and ability he has, so he would really be impossible to replace at this level. I'd have to pay someone to come in with his skill level and, at this point, with things in this much disarray, I am not willing to put that much out there. And once I start putting that kind of money out, then it sort of turns into my vanity project, right?

As much as it's fun having this kind of success, we don't really make that much money. I can afford to do it, but I won't.

Aside from that, he's a core member with a lot of history here. I can't just replace him any more than he can replace me. It gets very angsty at that point and I'm not willing to go there. The whole thing is just sad, really.

My gut says he knows he's irreplaceable but I don't think he knows how much his attitude is damaging our future.

got it. And I get it.

I hope it all works out to your satisfaction and musical happiness. But. Well, you know...

 

[51PRI]

I for one don't see how expecting somebody to respond regarding their availability within a reasonable timeframe is being pushy. If you already think that such a failure to respond is "not OK," as you say above, then that must be at least part of the problem, no? Possibly even the bulk of it, or even the whole thing? So how can the OP possibly be the "whole problem"?

Maybe the OP has been, in the viewpoint of her band mates, "too pushy" in changing the band from a group of people who used to get together and jam to a band that now has to respond within an unspecified time frame or be labeled passive aggressive. The OP now says that both the P/A member of the band and the lead singer said she was being too pushy! So now the problem seems to not just be the passive aggressive guy but the lead singer, too. As has been said we are only hearing one side of the story but that one side seems to keep changing.

Not replying to band business texts pretty promptly is a problem, for sure, in a strictly business sense, but I think there is a lot that we don't know about this situation.

And now I'm wondering why this thread was started in the first place...commiseration?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

that one side seems to keep changing.

No, it hasn't really. Additional events have emerged as the discussion has continued. It's not the dissembling you seem to be trying to imply. The original point has not changed at all.

Not replying to band business texts pretty promptly is a problem, for sure, in a strictly business sense, but I think there is a lot that we don't know about this situation.

No, it's not just a strictly business sense, though if it were only that, it would still be worth discussion. It's also a matter of common courtesy and respect. Things that we would all like to have in our bands.

And now I'm wondering why this thread was started in the first place...commiseration?

The reason why the thread was started was clarified in the very first post in the thread. It's still there if you want to read it.

 

[pepj]

It isnt being pushy expecting a prompt response when it is clear the time scale needs that.
To not respond to that is just plain awkward, borderline ignorant. Why make pushing the wheel harder by going uphill.
I suspect they have no clue what it takes to get gigs at times...which is why they dont or cant do it...but they should at least be grateful its being done.
Now, why would someone spike that..

To solve..as opposed to resolve..this, I'd either say I'm done and the reason is poor responses to band issues, so meaning band fails, or make it such a band issue, they all know what they next consequence is and likely who is to blame.

Someone is trying to help grease the wheels and soneone has a problem with that. Its a lack of respect firstly, and I don't hold much hope you can surpass that....unless dick brain gtr realises no gigs.

And if that is his standard of operating, he will not get too many takers..or he may get offers beczuse he is a regarded player but they'll fall off... unless it is one specific person, which it sounds like it is, but he still sounds an immature person.
If you dont like the way they do things, either do them yourself or move on.

 

[2groggy]

The words "no clue" in the above post gave me another thought - Hanlon's razor:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."​

It might not apply here, but it always gives me a smile.

 

[LBS-bass]

So, anyway, thank you all for helping me work through how I'm feeling on this. As is usual, yes, people asked questions and elicited additional details that may or may not matter very much, but the person above is correct to suggest that the basics are as stated in the first post.

As one can expect when people have known each other for several years, there have been interactions and changes, and I've tried my best to navigate with acute sensitivity what have, frankly, always felt like waters that need to be carefully travelled due to the nature of how we are organized (or not organized). I'm usually pretty good at putting my finger up to the wind and figuring out which way to go, and I know that people and situations are always far more fragile than they seem on the surface. That right there is part of my standard operating procedure; I'm never out to ruffle feathers but, if anything, I can err too far on the side of caution in not wanting to set anyone off.

Things for me haven't really changed from post #1, except that I feel much better about it than I did when I wrote that. I hope that people will step up, and perhaps when they do I'll see that it was never aimed at me at all, but is a general malaise that signals a loss of interest on his part. If that's the case then we'll have to have a discussion with him. He's pretty much irreplaceable if we want the band to continue on it's current course unchanged, but nobody's irreplaceable, really. We could bring in another player. Our newest member can take on a lot of the harmony; she has a good ear for that. It will change, but change is ok. Whether we have the stomach to go through all the change that would be needed is doubtful, but we'll cross that bridge if we get there. I am not sure that I do.

On the whole I'm hoping this can be resolved without making those sorts of changes, but I'd rather be a spectator than a target as this plays out. So laying low and letting them find their way still seems like a good strategy.

Thanks again.

 

[pepj]

It is also true that some gifted players do not have an ounce of organisational ability or can be bothered with it...they just want to play so they may need to be reminded how this band diary gets filled...and how well it gets filled if you are playing good dates to good crowds.
That in itself is not easy to achieve, and a lot of backstage stuff goes on. If it were that easy, every band would do it...and we know thats not the case.

I hope its not any more than that and if it is then the choice is simple...someone needs to compromise which means gtrs needs a reality check on the role of admin work and then decide would they be happier without a certain member but run the risk of crappier gigs.

My deal is I try to get nice gigs...as opposed to any gigs, and for that I can ask the best, imv, players to do them. 9 out of 10 times, it works like that.

 

[LBS-bass]

And here's a postscript, for those who might be confused about what constitutes passive-aggressive behavior. Psychology today has a pretty good article on it that you can read; it might even give me some tips on what to do. I just found this article today.

Passive-Aggression

What are some examples of passive-aggressive behavior?

Some common forms of passive aggression include avoiding responsibility for tasks, procrastinating and even missing deadlines, withholding critical information, and frequently underachieving relative to what one is capable of producing. This type of behavior can cause problems at home when the family cannot depend on a passive-aggressive individual to follow through on their promises. Passive aggression at work can sabotage group projects, resulting in unachieved goals.​

I'd say that my friend is falling into the descriptions I've bolded. He definitely does not underachieve, though.

Where it's been suggested that my responses to him are also passive-aggressive I'd challenge by pointing out that my bandmates are informed of my decision to step back and I've actively requested assistance in specific areas from some of them. They don't really need to know why, though most will already know the reason.

That's something I'll continue to do, as long as they're ok with taking it all on. I can't see anything in my response that's at all passive or aggressive, unless you think responding at all to a negative situation is an aggressive move.

Let's look at other possible responses, though. Here's an interesting point, which jives with my past experiences and my reasons for not getting confrontational:

Nagging or getting angry only puts the passive-aggressive person on the defensive—often resulting in them making excuses or denying any responsibility. Recent research shows that there are healthier ways to confront passive aggression and handle relationship conflict.
​

So my instincts here are probably good. But:

If at all possible, the best solution is often to limit the time you spend in their presence. But if you determine that confrontation is the best path forward, avoid being accusatory as you calmly explain how the behavior makes you feel.
​

Then it goes on to offer advice on the best way to confront the behavior if that's what you really feel is needed. I can't avoid this guy, but I can avoid being in his crosshairs as much as possible, which is part of my thinking here. And my getting out of his crosshairs (as I perceive it) gives us all the opportunity to see if it's just a response to me, or if he's just mentally checked out from the whole deal.

So I feel a bit affirmed, though there are some other good details here I'm going to munch on.