Never mind that bars have to buy their beer and spirits so they can resell them. They don't get it for free.
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Play for free, huh? Not cool!
- Thread starter DWBass
- Start date
I assumed we were talking about $20 / person profit, but yes, you're right. So, $40-ish per head to break even.
Why? He's right about all of it. Be disappointed all you like, but they're, at best, maliciously stupid. I hope they never get a gig, anywhere.
Good points. I know when my wife and I go out to a bar to see a band we don't spend anywhere close to $80. Neither of us are big drinkers so maybe 1-2 drinks a piece. We usually only stay for a set as well, so it's not like we're spending all night there.
At the end of the day, are there actually bar owners cruising Craigslist for bands to book? I’d be shocked if they get even one gig from this ad. It’s a non/issue.
That’s the other problem. Nobody wants a DUI so drinking is limited. I nurse one, but tip well.
I usually tip 2-3 per drink (usually just beer or something simple like rum and coke), just cause I try and pay it forward since servers always take care of us. I doubt the bar owners even think of tips though as it doesn’t impact THEIR bottom line.
Biiiiig +1
But Doctor Zee, I always try and look at the bright side. Because of this thread, I have learned something about myself that I didn’t know before. Since I play music purely as a hobby for the joy of playing music and don’t care at all about getting paid to enjoy my hobby, this thread has helped me learn that I am:
-an idiot
-a slut
-maliciously stupid
So I’ve got THAT going for me, which is nice!
Hey SB? I respect and agree with almost everything you post here. But I have to take issue a little bit with some of that one post.
You make some very valid points. But by the same token, there’s another “brutal and perhaps not very nice sounding truth” you’re skating past in that hobbyist musicians doing what they’re doing in the local music scene are also doing their part to destroy much of the economic value and marketability of “local live” music performance.
And when you take into consideration the number of hobbyists in this thread that have basically said “Screw you if you don’t like it Mr. Local Professional Musician!” then they can’t seriously hope to wholly exempt themselves from any and all responsibility for what’s going on. If they’re aware (as they apparently are) of the factors in the equation, see where their actions factor in, and then elect to say they just don’t care, at least that's being more honest than getting up on a moral high horse and blaming the people losing out from it. So if that’s the hobbyist’s position, then at least have the decency to take ownership of it. Most people find it easier to accept selfishness than they do hypocrisy.
From my perspective, the professionals out there are not entirely and solely responsible for what’s happening - nor are the hobbyists completely innocent parties either
So if there’s the need to point a finger, then there’s plenty of justifiable blame to pass out on all sides if the equation.
As a friend of mine used to say: There’s no completely honest men signed on for this trip.
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Hey SB? I respect and agree with almost everything you post here. But I have to take issue a little bit with some of that one post.
You make some very valid points. But by the same token, there’s another “brutal and perhaps not very nice sounding truth” you’re skating past in that hobbyist musicians doing what they’re doing in the local music scene are also doing their part to destroy much of the economic value and marketability of “local live” music performance.
And when you take into consideration the number of hobbyists in this thread that have basically said “Screw you if you don’t like it Mr. Local Professional Musician!” then they can’t seriously hope to wholly exempt themselves from any and all responsibility for what’s going on. If they’re aware (as they apparently are) of the factors in the equation, see where their actions factor in, and then elect to say they just don’t care, at least that's being more honest than getting up on a moral high horse and blaming the people losing out from it. So if that’s the hobbyist’s position, then at least have the decency to take ownership of it. Most people find it easier to accept selfishness than they do hypocrisy.
From my perspective, the professionals out there are not entirely and solely responsible for what’s happening - nor are the hobbyists completely innocent parties either
So if there’s the need to point a finger, then there’s plenty of justifiable blame to pass out on all sides if the equation.
As a friend of mine used to say: There’s no completely honest men signed on for this trip.
Jesus. It *is* a hobby, period. Get out there and get yourself some decent gigs instead of playing rock star at Joe's Watering Hole.
This is kinda where the old "guilds" came from: closing out anyone who simply wants to "do" that activity. You could be prosecuted for making a violin, or making a lathe, and learning to use it, because you were not part of the luthiers guild (or whatever the historical name may have been) or the turners guild. And the law would back the guilds.
So, the one extreme is, 'If you don't do this professionally (and at my level), then you shouldn't do it at all!", and the other extreme seems to be, "There is room for everyone at the trough; dig in!"
But let's say I make violins (I do):...can I compete with the Chinese (or Sri Lankan, or Polish, etc.) imports? Nope! Not a chance! Can I compete with other American luthiers who use CNC to accomplish all the carving and then basically assemble a kit from that "jump-start"...? Probably not. Can I compete with the established professionals who regularly rake in $15-30K (or more) for a handmade instrument? Nope...can't do that either, because I am NOT an established professional, with the name familiarity and "fan-base." So what is left for me?
As far as I can see, my only hope is to "up my game," until the players who try my instruments are so impressed with playability, tone-palette, projection, etc.,that they are freely willing to exceed the prices of the imports by a large margin, and also ignore the voices of those who protest, "Oh, but you ought to buy a "known name" violin, as it is a "better investment."
Yes, it is really tough to break into such a market, but I would never tell the poor sweatshop workers in China that they should be forbidden to build because they so completely undercut my prices.
And what do I say to those who ask "Why should I pay that much for a violin when I can get one just like it from eBay for $200?" I say, "If you see no difference, and can hear no difference, then, by all means, buy the one from eBay!" They would not have appreciated my work anyway, so I am happy to miss that "sale."
So, the one extreme is, 'If you don't do this professionally (and at my level), then you shouldn't do it at all!", and the other extreme seems to be, "There is room for everyone at the trough; dig in!"
But let's say I make violins (I do):...can I compete with the Chinese (or Sri Lankan, or Polish, etc.) imports? Nope! Not a chance! Can I compete with other American luthiers who use CNC to accomplish all the carving and then basically assemble a kit from that "jump-start"...? Probably not. Can I compete with the established professionals who regularly rake in $15-30K (or more) for a handmade instrument? Nope...can't do that either, because I am NOT an established professional, with the name familiarity and "fan-base." So what is left for me?
As far as I can see, my only hope is to "up my game," until the players who try my instruments are so impressed with playability, tone-palette, projection, etc.,that they are freely willing to exceed the prices of the imports by a large margin, and also ignore the voices of those who protest, "Oh, but you ought to buy a "known name" violin, as it is a "better investment."
Yes, it is really tough to break into such a market, but I would never tell the poor sweatshop workers in China that they should be forbidden to build because they so completely undercut my prices.
And what do I say to those who ask "Why should I pay that much for a violin when I can get one just like it from eBay for $200?" I say, "If you see no difference, and can hear no difference, then, by all means, buy the one from eBay!" They would not have appreciated my work anyway, so I am happy to miss that "sale."
I fall into the hobbyist / semi-pro category as I make the lion’s share of my income from my day job.
But I have played with pros and am friends with them and out of consideration I always charge as much as possible, have no interest at n playing for free except for a few benefits and maybe for a close friend’s private party, and I like and am proud of the fact that we get hooked and get paid, sometimes very well, for our performances.
Just like teaching bass, where I charge the going rate for lessons so as not to tank the market for pros trying to earn a living.
But I have played with pros and am friends with them and out of consideration I always charge as much as possible, have no interest at n playing for free except for a few benefits and maybe for a close friend’s private party, and I like and am proud of the fact that we get hooked and get paid, sometimes very well, for our performances.
Just like teaching bass, where I charge the going rate for lessons so as not to tank the market for pros trying to earn a living.
I have heard the multiplier is 3x ( what is paid to entertainment ) worth of bar sales covers the entertainment.
It's a dicey proposition at the best of times to put a band in a bar that is not already known for live bands.
That is a different proposition from if you know you can put an extra 3k through the till with your booze hounds at a popular local haunt your 5 piece spectacular haven't played yet.
I think we have a good idea which it is not.
I really enjoy playing music as I'm sure most of us on TB do. I'll probably play until the day (hopefully several decades in the future) my fingers don't work anymore just because playing makes me happy. However, I will not let someone take advantage of me by profiting from my joy without sharing a portion of that profit (charities excluded). I don't need the money, really, and hopefully am fortunate enough to never need the money I get from playing (although it is nice to be able to tell my wife that my gigs paid for my latest piece of gear instead of my day job). For me it's all about the principle of the matter. Compensation for service provided. Of course, only you can decide whether or not you feel the compensation you receive is equal to the service you provide.
For the record, I’ve only done one “free” show. We were trying to get a restaurant owner to see the value of live music. The place was packed but he didn’t see it. That was a total CF.
“Period” is a personal thing. Not everybody puts it after the same thing.
FWIW I don’t play out very much these days. And the bands I was in the past mainly did our own showcases because we were swinging for the bleachers at the time -or- playing that relatively small number of “designated venues” you fought tooth and claw to get a booking in with hopes of being “discovered.” It was definitely not a hobby for us. Not even for a minute.
Totally different world from today’s scene. For what my old bands were trying to do, today’s local scene would be largely irrelevant. Today we’d be working the media and Internet and building a fan base through direct marketing and communication and doing our releasing independently long before we’d be committing to mounting a limited tour or two. Times have changed.
If I were to get into regularly doing local music these days I’d skip the clubs unless I were in some major city with a vibrant arts and music scene. Otherwise I’d be far more inclined to go do weddings and events. They pay well. They’re held in nice places with decent AC. You often get a meal as part of the deal. You don’t need to worry about gear theft or damage. Sometimes there’s an unexpected but very nice tip. Most people in attendance will behave very nicely towards you. And as a bonus, if you’re single (I’m not), you might even end up leaving with a “late date” if you play your cards right.
Lots to like about doing weddings and events. Something I learned in college when I was also in my more “serious” albeit lower paid rock bands.
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Hey SB? I respect and agree with almost everything you post here. But I have to take issue a little bit with some of that one post.
You make some very valid points. But by the same token, there’s another “brutal and perhaps not very nice sounding truth” you’re skating past in that hobbyist musicians doing what they’re doing in the local music scene are also doing their part to destroy much of the economic value and marketability of “local live” music performance.
And when you take into consideration the number of hobbyists in this thread that have basically said “Screw you if you don’t like it Mr. Local Professional Musician!” then they can’t seriously hope to wholly exempt themselves from any and all responsibility for what’s going on. If they’re aware (as they apparently are) of the factors in the equation, see where their actions factor in, and then elect to say they just don’t care, at least that's being more honest than getting up on a moral high horse and blaming the people losing out from it. So if that’s the hobbyist’s position, then at least have the decency to take ownership of it. Most people find it easier to accept selfishness than they do hypocrisy.
From my perspective, the professionals out there are not entirely and solely responsible for what’s happening - nor are the hobbyists completely innocent parties either
So if there’s the need to point a finger, then there’s plenty of justifiable blame to pass out on all sides if the equation.
As a friend if mine used to say: There’s no completely honest men signed on for this trip.
I respect everyone’s comments in this thread.
Talkbass is an awesome discussion forum! I am thankful that it exists, and I am thankful that we have the pleasure of sharing so many perspectives and opinions regarding playing bass! 
I’ve had four main hobbies in my life: motorcycling, boating, flying Cessna airplanes, and playing bass guitar in classic rock cover bands. I never had any interest in making any money with any of my hobbies. I pursued a career in civil engineering to address the income component of life, and that worked out well for me. If my hobby of playing music (for free because of my sheer love of playing music) causes others some form of unhappiness or disgruntled-ness, then I don’t know what else to say other than what I have already posted in this thread.
From my perspective, what really matters in life is that we each do what makes us happy. That’s why I do what I do with respect to my particular hobbies that I have chosen. The interest in trying to squeeze money from any of my hobbies just doesn’t exist in my mind.
Here’s another example. I am the sole organizer of a meetup dot com group for motorcycling. I pay the meetup dot com company about $180 per year for having my own meetup website. I design all of the routes and itineraries for the single and multi-day rides, and I lead the rides. I have over 200 members. I could charge an annual fee for membership, but I don’t! It’s absolutely free for all members. The trivial $180 fee that I pay each year means nothing to me. Why do I pay that and spend many hours creating the ride routes and itineraries for free? Because of my sheer love and joy of riding my motorcycle! That’s all the reason I need.
I also never charged anyone to go flying with me. Why? Because I was having fun enjoying my flying hobby! Same with boating!
It’s just the way I am. If that doesn’t fit with what others think I should or shouldn’t be doing in my life, well, I guess they will just have to figure out how to deal with that on their own!
^100% this. Is the beer free? Did the bartender work for free? Is the bar owner running a business for free? No? There is money changing hands. The band needs to be paid.
