Play for free, huh? Not cool!

[whero]

Some random thoughts. Sorry if it comes off like a rant - that's not intended - but I haven't had any coffee yet today.

Freebies are common in many industries. I've seen consultants who earn $250 an hour do a day for free to promote themselves or a cause. I've seen manufacturing and medical supply companies give free samples. Why should the music industry be any different? The only people who ever complain about it are ones who are not involved in the deal but still feel like they're missing out.

We don't know anything about these guys. They might know they're awful and figure free is about what they're worth. They might be OK but just new to playing together and want to see if people like how they sound. They might have day jobs earning $100K a year and just want to play for fun. They might be a bunch of guys suffering from depression who desperately need to get out and be with other people. We really shouldn't judge them based on a 64-word Craigslist ad.

It's easy to get up on our high horses and complain about how guys like this are driving the value of live music down for the rest of us. But 80% of bands are not thinking about you (or any other band) when they negotiate their fee - they're thinking about themselves. Of the other 20%, nearly all of them are only thinking about you because they're trying to figure out how much they need to undercut you to get the gig without losing money. About 0.001% of bands are setting their fees and thinking "I wonder if I'm destroying the live music industry?"

Getting paid to play is a journey. Many bands, particularly if they're young kids, are happy to just be playing out. One day they'll get paid enough to cover their petrol money and they'll joke about hitting the big time. Then they'll be getting $300 and splitting it between them. Maybe later they'll be getting $200 each. Springsteen didn't start out asking for Springteen money.

And talking about Springsteen, he gets Springsteen money because he's worth it. He has a great product and can draw a big crowd. If your band has a great product and can draw a big crowd then bar owners will pay you to play. A bunch of kids just starting out won't hurt you.

 

[40Hz]

It’s just the way I am. If that doesn’t fit with what others think I should or shouldn’t be doing in my life, well, I guess they will just have to figure out how to deal with that on their own!

Pretty much. And it’s all good really.

But fortunately, we can disagree on some details and interpretations of things without completely dismissing all the other interesting and good stuff about us (and how we think) that make up the full tapestry of who we are.

Different people. Different perspectives. Grounds for some interesting discussions at the very least.

 

[Kukulkan61]

Cut throats at their finest

 

[SactoBass]

Pretty much. And it’s all good really.

But fortunately, we can disagree on some details and interpretations of things without completely dismissing all the other interesting and good stuff about us (and how we think) that make up the full tapestry of who we are.

Different people. Different perspectives. Grounds for some interesting discussions at the very least.

Most definitely!

And for those folks out there who depend on band money to pay bills, I sincerely wish them success!

 

[40Hz]

Most definitely!

And for those folks out there who depend on band money to pay bills, I sincerely wish them success!

Me too. But I think they’re more in need of divine intervention the way things seem to be going.

Two words of advice if you’re doing it today because you need the money: (1) weddings, (2) functions.

 

[SactoBass]

Some random thoughts. Sorry if it comes off like a rant - that's not intended - but I haven't had any coffee yet today.

Freebies are common in many industries. I've seen consultants who earn $250 an hour do a day for free to promote themselves or a cause. I've seen manufacturing and medical supply companies give free samples. Why should the music industry be any different? The only people who ever complain about it are ones who are not involved in the deal but still feel like they're missing out.

We don't know anything about these guys. They might know they're awful and figure free is about what they're worth. They might be OK but just new to playing together and want to see if people like how they sound. They might have day jobs earning $100K a year and just want to play for fun. They might be a bunch of guys suffering from depression who desperately need to get out and be with other people. We really shouldn't judge them based on a 64-word Craigslist ad.

It's easy to get up on our high horses and complain about how guys like this are driving the value of live music down for the rest of us. But 80% of bands are not thinking about you (or any other band) when they negotiate their fee - they're thinking about themselves. Of the other 20%, nearly all of them are only thinking about you because they're trying to figure out how much they need to undercut you to get the gig without losing money. About 0.001% of bands are setting their fees and thinking "I wonder if I'm destroying the live music industry?"

Getting paid to play is a journey. Many bands, particularly if they're young kids, are happy to just be playing out. One day they'll get paid enough to cover their petrol money and they'll joke about hitting the big time. Then they'll be getting $300 and splitting it between them. Maybe later they'll be getting $200 each. Springsteen didn't start out asking for Springteen money.

And talking about Springsteen, he gets Springsteen money because he's worth it. He has a great product and can draw a big crowd. If your band has a great product and can draw a big crowd then bar owners will pay you to play. A bunch of kids just starting out won't hurt you.

Well stated!

 

[Daniel Piper]

Idiots don't realize they're hurting every single person in the industry.

Yip, they don’t know.

If they knew, they would probably be of an age/maturity/professionalism to realise they could be getting $ to upgrade their gear and spend on Pokémon cards.

 

[SactoBass]

Me too. But I think they’re more in need of divine intervention the way things seem to be going.

Two words of advice if you’re doing it today because you need the money: (1) weddings, (2) functions.

Big +1

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Cut throats at their finest

It’s not cutthroats, it’s people with different goals. It’s all economics. Even the “good” paying gigs around here pay $500. Split that up among four people and a sound guy, pay taxes, subtract transportation costs and you’re still effectively doing it for free. Many of the bands don’t even pay themselves, the money just goes into a group fund for PA gear or whatever. The best way to make money is to put down the bass, pick up a guitar and small PA, learn to sing and gig as a solo act. Pretty easy to pull $300 a night and many times you start and end earlier.

 

[micguy]

It’s a Marketing tactic. If it works, they’re better off than walking into a pay to play scenario.

Free doesn’t always mean low quality. If you saw/heard the bands I play in in churches, you’d have to admit we’re a cut above most bar bands.

If you insist on being paid, nothing wrong with that. You just have to make it worth your asking price to whoever’s paying you.

 

[Brad Johnson]

So...the FREE bands are pushing down prices for the average $400 bar & grill bands, who are pushing down prices for the good $1000 bar bands, who are pushing down prices for the the $2000 A-list bands, who are pushing down prices for the really good 3-5K wedding an events bands, who are pushing down prices for the regional acts, who are pushing down prices for the the lower-level national touring acts, who are pushing down prices for the well-established touring acts, who are pushing down prices for the Rolling Stones.

I'm in the $400 bar band category. Frankly, it's doesn't matter to me if I make $50 or $200 per gig. I'm more concerned with whether the venue is paying us fairly. I doubt I'd play for free, just because I have a little bit of pride. No, I'm not going to play a typically-packed bar for $50, nor am I going to play a typically-empty place for $200. If the venue is making money, I expect to be compensated fairly. If the venue is usually dead, I really don't want to play there at any price. Even if I played 4 gigs a month @ $200, that's less than $10K year (and even less if you I'm paying taxes). In reality, I maybe gig 10 times a year (as do a lot of bands that play the places that I do). I won't be quitting my day job any time soon.

I could see if you are doing this for a living...but in that case, why are you even concerned with what the bottom feeders are making? Seems like you wouldn't be leaving the house for less than several hundred per man. And if your usual haunts are trying to cut their rates, maybe it's time to up your game and move onto more lucrative venues and opportunities.

Playing for a living does not equal not leaving the house for less than several hundred dollars.

 

[Altitude]

Is this band?

I have no trust for most of what I see on the internet these days. Those guys might have been cagey, recorded a deliberately awful performance knowing that would get more views than a good one. And here we are looking at it. I doubt I'd be looking at a good performance of "Cocaine" by a cover band out of Norfolk on a Friday afternoon.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Sorry, but they ARE idiots. And, it’s a mean world. Beyond just the band getting paid issue, it furthers the mindset in the gen pop of being entitled to free music. Music itself us devalued. Unfortunately, at this point, the horse is not only out of the barn, it’s way down the road. Now, I’m sure these guys probably don’t need the money, it’s just an expensive hobby and a chance to live out a fantasy on stage. Others may not be so lucky, and even if they are not out trying to ‘make it’, there’s still expenses to be met that meager merch sales won’t cover. I know many a band has had to make this decision privately, as a tactical move, on occasion. I don’t begrudge anyone for that. But to purposely pull down your pants and bend over, it sends a certain message to bar owners, who then go on run with it as standard operating procedure. These guys are sluts. Whores still get paid.

That's the only way this could play out? Wow.

 

[Element Zero]

Idiots don't realize they're hurting every single person in the industry.

So... it’s not ok to just want to play regardless of monetary compensation?

 

[Element Zero]

I hope they never get a gig, anywhere.

Wow.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I reread the OP and the link again and am still coming away with the same thing...

it looks like nothing more than a band looking to get their foot in the door. Period. The rest of this stuff including the namecalling seems to be based on flights of fancy. Apparently you saw "Everywhere, everytime". I didn't. Probably need to get my assumption goggles checked out.


If you have a new band and have tried getting gigs through normal channels, should you give up if that fails? Or try something like this, with confidence in yourself? Sure, an owner could get over for ONE free gig but that's might be worth the risk.

So how does this morph into them being villains? The usual way I play for a living and I'm not mad at them because they really aren't necessarily my competition. And if they get to the point where they are I need to justify why I'm worth what I'm asking.

 

[SactoBass]

So... it’s not ok to just want to play regardless of monetary compensation?

Element: based on the posts in this thread (and I’ve read every post so far), I would say that some folks most definitely feel that it is **NOT** okay to just want to play regardless of monetary compensation, and there are some folks who feel it is perfectly fine to do so.

Oh well! There ya have it!

 

[Bullitt5135]

If it were me, I'd put together a short & sweet "elevator pitch" EPK that you can show on an iPad. Your talent should speak for itself in 1 minute or less. Do your homework and find out what the going rate is at each venue. I don't see anything wrong with telling the booking manager "our standard rate is $$$, but we are a new outfit and we are willing to work with you to get our foot in the door." That sets the stage for a negotiation without making your band look desperate. Heck, the venue might be OK with giving you a shot at your standard rate. They may have an established policy of paying a reduced rate for a first "audition" gig, and bumping it to the standard rate if they re-book you. They may offer a reduced rate with incentives if you fill up the till. The may tell you to pound sand.

One lesson I learned the hard was was about being TOO passive. Leaving a CD with the bartender or emailing/VM'ing the owner is a waste of time. Find out who handles the booking and make an appointment. Send your band's best salesman/negotiator. Show him your elevator pitch, and ask if he has an opening for you. If he says "I'll get back to you" or "we're already booked 4 months out," tell him you're happy to have a beer while he grabs his calendar. Believe me, nobody will ever call you back or email you once you walk out the door. Be persistent and don't leave without getting a date. And if you can't get a date (but you still want to play there), hit them up regularly and remind them you are available for last-minute openings and cancellations. Be sure to have your act together, and work hard to get butts in the seats.

 

[4SG]

Hobbying dentists and lawyers maybe?

I worked my ass off as a lawyer for 30 years, put my kids through college, paid my mortgage and became financially secure--SO THAT I COULD ENJOY MY HOBBY OF PLAYING MUSIC. Along the way I didn't gripe that every year thousands more eager young punks were passing the bar and entering the legal field, competing for my clients and existing business.

My band gets paid for gigs, records and tours, but I don't give a crap whether I make a cent as long as I'm having fun. People don't come to our shows or buy our merch because I--and my lead guitarist--are lawyers. We get booked because our music is excellent: great songs played well. If you can't make a living as a musician either find another job or get a lot better.

 

[jdthebassman]

you get what you don't pay for