Poly vs. Nitro vs. something better?

[Pilgrim]

It's out there, but you need to be creative with the search terms. There are many threads discussing pros and cons.

If you want to find which is "better", give it up. The answer is the same as the answer to: "How long is a ball of string?"

 

[f.c.geil]

I prefer nitro. Does it sound better? If you think it does. I think the thickness of the paint absolutely makes a tonal difference, and nitro used to be sprayed thinner (which may be where the whole "nitro sounds better" thing came from), so an old bass with nitro probably sounds better than a new one with poly with equivalent electronics. I like it because it ages more beautifully than poly. Poly cracks and peels and looks terrible, but nitro just gets thinner and wears down smoothly.

 

[Turnaround]

nitro just gets thinner and wears down smoothly.

...and chips and crazes and blooms, etc. Poly is a better finish if you want your bass protected from sweat, beer and grime. It's pretty well impervious. Nitro is a finer finish,and when done well can look supreme. For those that have seen it, there's nothing quite like a carefully applied and buffed nitro - except maybe for a skillful French Polish. I have a beautiful buffed nitro bass, but it will never see a bar gig. The poly bass gets that job.

What's better? Depends ... gig, risk, sentimental value....???

 

[Turnaround]

I probably should add a few notes...

When Leo (and others) started making their instruments, the choice to spray on lacquer was one largely of economics, not aesthetics. The quickest, easiest way to finish an instrument was to spray it with lacquer, just like they did in the automobile industry. The choice to do this was based on the economics of mass producing instruments, not on the tonal qualities of the finish. It was easy to apply quickly and was durable enough for an automobile, so it was a pretty obvious choice.

Once earlier electric instruments started to be viewed as "vintage", the collectors would use the type of finish as an indicator that the instrument was really an undoctored original. Before long the myth grew that there was something special about a nitro finish, or for that matter a bent-plate bridge, or even a celluloid pick guard. The only special thing about them is that they are the original components of an early bass. In many ways, a lot of these things are inferior performance-wise. Some are quite fine, but I for one would say that nitro is not in that latter category in many ways. It is susceptible to water damage (including sweat). It softens over time from contact with the components in your skin that keep it flexible, and can get imbedded with dirt and grime (some call it MOJO - it's still wear and dirt). If you try to clean it in this condition, you will get a real mess. Anything that lifts the dirt also softens the finish further and you end up with a sticky, dull, messy result. Poly doesn't do that. Grimy? Soap and water will clean it. Or Mr. Clean. Or Windex, or....etc.

 

[fendersurfer]

I probably should add a few notes...

When Leo (and others) started making their instruments, the choice to spray on lacquer was one largely of economics, not aesthetics. The quickest, easiest way to finish an instrument was to spray it with lacquer, just like they did in the automobile industry. The choice to do this was based on the economics of mass producing instruments, not on the tonal qualities of the finish. It was easy to apply quickly and was durable enough for an automobile, so it was a pretty obvious choice.

Once earlier electric instruments started to be viewed as "vintage", the collectors would use the type of finish as an indicator that the instrument was really an undoctored original. Before long the myth grew that there was something special about a nitro finish, or for that matter a bent-plate bridge, or even a celluloid pick guard. The only special thing about them is that they are the original components of an early bass. In many ways, a lot of these things are inferior performance-wise. Some are quite fine, but I for one would say that nitro is not in that latter category in many ways. It is susceptible to water damage (including sweat). It softens over time from contact with the components in your skin that keep it flexible, and can get imbedded with dirt and grime (some call it MOJO - it's still wear and dirt). If you try to clean it in this condition, you will get a real mess. Anything that lifts the dirt also softens the finish further and you end up with a sticky, dull, messy result. Poly doesn't do that. Grimy? Soap and water will clean it. Or Mr. Clean. Or Windex, or....etc.

Some good notes here, thanks.
Windex? Glass cleaner for nitro finished? I used that for some black stains in the buckle rash region. Now I'm worried. No water, but a soap-solution would be ok?

So I have a nitro finish on my bass, too (I think).
But gigs in bars... of course. As long as they are smoke free.

 

[Hopkins]

...and chips and crazes and blooms, etc. Poly is a better finish if you want your bass protected from sweat, beer and grime. It's pretty well impervious. Nitro is a finer finish,and when done well can look supreme. For those that have seen it, there's nothing quite like a carefully applied and buffed nitro - except maybe for a skillful French Polish. I have a beautiful buffed nitro bass, but it will never see a bar gig. The poly bass gets that job.

What's better? Depends ... gig, risk, sentimental value....???

Poly can buff out just as clear as nitro. I have pretty much completely gotten away from nitro. Poly can be applied just as thin as nitro and buffed to a mirror shine.

Your are absolutely correct about it being much more durable, and less sensitive to climate changes. I finished a guitar for a guy in nitro (which he requested). His first gig was an outdoor gig and it was about 95 degrees outside. After the gig he took it inside an air conditioned RV and the finish on the fret board and around the cavities started checking. I wound up refinishing it in an automotive urethane for the price of materials.

The advantages of poly far out weigh nitro IMHO

Durability is number 1. It is ready to wet sand and polish overnight instead of a month like nitro. It build faster so it doesn't need as many coats. And you don't have to worry about the foam on a guitar stand or wall hanger screwing up the finish.

 

[fendersurfer]

Windex? Glass cleaner for nitro finished? I used that for some black stains in the buckle rash region. Now I'm worried. No water, but a soap-solution would be ok?

QUOTE]

I thought nitro was used on cars. So cars will get some or more rain, didn't the nitro lacquer protect against rain? Did nitro get softer, when cars got rain over the years?

 

[Turnaround]

Windex? Glass cleaner for nitro finished? I used that for some black stains in the buckle rash region. Now I'm worried. No water, but a soap-solution would be ok?

QUOTE]

I thought nitro was used on cars. So cars will get some or more rain, didn't the nitro lacquer protect against rain? Did nitro get softer, when cars got rain over the years?

No I don't recommend Windex on nitro. It's OK on poly though.

It's not the rain that makes nitro softer, it's the plasticizers in your skin. Nitro on wood will water spot and bloom. Ever leave a vase of flowers on a dining table and the condensation left a white ring? Guess what a lot of furniture was finished with.... nitro.

 

[Pilgrim]

I thought nitro was used on cars. So cars will get some or more rain, didn't the nitro lacquer protect against rain? Did nitro get softer, when cars got rain over the years?

When Leo started building guitars, he used car paint, mostly GM colors and some Chrysler colors. At that time, the car manufacturers were using nitro-based lacquer for paint, so that's what Leo used. I remember in the 60's GM cars were famed both for their shiny paint and how easily it chipped when rocks hit it.

Over time, the car builders moved away from nitro and went to other formulations, and Fender went to poly-based finishes in other colors than the car builders were using. Poly-based finishes are not inferior to nitro or any other lacquer, and they're more durable to wear and resistant to discoloration.

There is a fiction that everything Leo did at the start MUST be better. Balderdash. Fender makes a decent mass-produced instrument, and that's what it is intended to be. Just because something is old and boomers like me want to spend stupid money on the stuff they had as kids doesn't mean that old stuff is any better than what you buy today.

 

[Hopkins]

When Leo started building guitars, he used car paint, mostly GM colors and some Chrysler colors. At that time, the car manufacturers were using nitro-based lacquer for paint, so that's what Leo used. I remember in the 60's GM cars were famed both for their shiny paint and how easily it chipped when rocks hit it.

Over time, the car builders moved away from nitro and went to other formulations, and Fender went to poly-based finishes in other colors than the car builders were using. Poly-based finishes are not inferior to nitro or any other lacquer, and they're more durable to wear and resistant to discoloration.

There is a fiction that everything Leo did at the start MUST be better. Balderdash. Fender makes a decent mass-produced instrument, and that's what it is intended to be. Just because something is old and boomers like me want to spend stupid money on the stuff they had as kids doesn't mean that old stuff is any better than what you buy today.

My name is Paul Hopkins, and I approve this message

 

[bassbully]

When Leo started building guitars, he used car paint, mostly GM colors and some Chrysler colors. At that time, the car manufacturers were using nitro-based lacquer for paint, so that's what Leo used. I remember in the 60's GM cars were famed both for their shiny paint and how easily it chipped when rocks hit it.

Over time, the car builders moved away from nitro and went to other formulations, and Fender went to poly-based finishes in other colors than the car builders were using. Poly-based finishes are not inferior to nitro or any other lacquer, and they're more durable to wear and resistant to discoloration.

There is a fiction that everything Leo did at the start MUST be better. Balderdash. Fender makes a decent mass-produced instrument, and that's what it is intended to be. Just because something is old and boomers like me want to spend stupid money on the stuff they had as kids doesn't mean that old stuff is any better than what you buy today.

I remember reading that when Fender switched over to poly from nitro it made the folks at the plant very happy.

 

[Turnaround]

When Leo started building guitars, he used car paint, mostly GM colors and some Chrysler colors.

Yup. But it always seemed to me that he should have used Ford colours. Seems more fitting, likening Leo to Henry - both pioneers in their field, mass producers with an eye to standardized parts, mass production and economy.

 

[fretlessman71]

If Leo used the same colors that Henry used at the same stage in their company's lifetime, every old Fender would be black...

 

[fendersurfer]

No I don't recommend Windex on nitro. It's OK on poly though.

It's not the rain that makes nitro softer, it's the plasticizers in your skin. Nitro on wood will water spot and bloom. Ever leave a vase of flowers on a dining table and the condensation left a white ring? Guess what a lot of furniture was finished with.... nitro.

Ok, I stopped glass cleaner. Used it twice, hope the lacquer is not damaged by my mistake.

So you mean that sweating on the part where my arm rests etc. or on the back where my big belly ;-) rests the nitro will get damaged and softer after time?

 

[f.c.geil]

Ok, I stopped glass cleaner. Used it twice, hope the lacquer is not damaged by my mistake.

So you mean that sweating on the part where my arm rests etc. or on the back where my big belly ;-) rests the nitro will get damaged and softer after time?

Yes. That's (one of the reasons) why so many old and/or "roadworn" basses have no paint there.

 

[fendersurfer]

Glass Cleaner (I used a cheap one, shame on me) contains water mostly, a bit soap and about 10-15% alcohol, the alcohol the thing thats not so good. :-(
Next bass will be urethane finish. :-/ In some years.
If it gets sweaty at rehearsals and gigs, I wear a wrist band, cause lacquer is always sticky. So I won't rub away the arm rest part of the lacquer. But for the belly and buckle thing, I guess I have to get over it. Bad that sweat is a factor for nitro finishes.

 

[bassdude51]

The question is..........Poly, nitro, something better?

Bare wood (no finish at all)

French Polish (the fore runner of nitro and used on violins etc from the 1700s on ward, has to be refinished about every 5 years.)

Linseed Oil

Danish Oil

A few coats of Birchwood Casey Gun Stock Oil.

If a finish makes a difference in sound, then go barewood.

 

[fendersurfer]

my second bass is natural oil finish, which has to be bee-waxed every year or two.

for lacquer, fender says:
If your bass is finished with lacquer, please make sure that you read the
“Lacquer Finishes: Precautions and Care” card that accompanies your
instrument. Avoid exposure of lacquer finishes to dyed fabrics or leathers,
plastics, synthetics and surgical rubber tubing, (used on many guitar
stands, hangers and straps), these materials will react adversely with the
lacquer and mar the finish of the instrument.

No dyed fabrics? oookay
And no leather strap on lacquer? Should have known that before.

 

[bassbully]

my second bass is natural oil finish, which has to be bee-waxed every year or two.

for lacquer, fender says:
If your bass is finished with lacquer, please make sure that you read the
“Lacquer Finishes: Precautions and Care” card that accompanies your
instrument. Avoid exposure of lacquer finishes to dyed fabrics or leathers,
plastics, synthetics and surgical rubber tubing, (used on many guitar
stands, hangers and straps), these materials will react adversely with the
lacquer and mar the finish of the instrument.

No dyed fabrics? oookay
And no leather strap on lacquer? Should have known that before.

I have an early 70's Gibson J-45/50 acoustic which is killer. It has these small brown lines on the back of the body.

I asked the guy at the shop I go to what caused these and he said the leather strap was left against the body and the dye got into the nitro.
The lines are under the finsh look and weird but its part of the charm of that guitar now.

 

[fendersurfer]

I have an early 70's Gibson J-45/50 acoustic which is killer. It has these small lines on thr back of the body.

I asked the guy at the shop I go to what caused these and he said the leather strap was left against the body and the dye got into the nitro.
The lines are under the finsh look and weird but its part of the charm of that guitar now.

+1

I need to acquire a taste for the picture enclosed, 'cause one day my shiny new bass will look like that.