Power Conditioners.

[seamonkey]

This one (below) tells you if an outlet is wired properly.
The other one is useful for checking for voltage on a circuit, but not if the wiring is correct.
Not all inspectors actually inspect the wiring. Some times they just sign-off on it.
Either they know the electrician always does good work, of the inspector is lazy.

View attachment 3003434

Power Gear 3-Wire Receptacle Tester-50542 - The Home Depot

"Please note that this tester does not indicate ground quality or reversal of grounded and grounding conductors."

They do catch some bad wiring. And there are newer ones with better ground testing but they cost $10 more and still miss some bad wiring jobs. Trip to gig is probably more dangerous than the venue wiring, drive a car with a seat belt and air bag - and now collision avoidance. Then somebody does something really stupid.
Old community halls and houses of worship are the worst. Some volunteer does the electrical. Good-hearted but could be a problem.

 

[DrummerwStrings]

A voltage regulator with spike protection can protect against high and low power delivery. There are limitations, such as a smaller powered amp for home use

Good point - 2 or 3 800W amps is a different story from a 5W practice amp. Scaling up to a gig, it's easy to see just getting power to your gear is a win.

Reading this thread taught me it's hard to underestimate how important proper grounding is - and I've been in my share of buildings with 2-prong outlets.

Puts a new perspective on some advice my grandfather gave me - when you walk into a bar, look for ways to get out of the bar.

 

[callofcthulhu]

Actually, noise becomes a MUCH more important issue because there's more power gain in a larger system. Every doubling of available power increases the noise floor by ~3dB. Since I did (and still do to some extent) a variety of shows, something acoustic in a large theatre venue where the room's noise floor is low could end up being a real problem with a large system but a small problem. The typical system I used was about ~20kW, so the noise floor would be 12dB higher (relative to rated output) than if the system was 1kW. That's a big difference, which is why you will see more money spent on lower noise electronics, mixing consoles, cabling and power/grounding system integrity and such on larger systems. This is also what drove the cost of the larger frame pro analog consoles that were commonly used with larger systems. The added thing about analog consoles is that additional channels and more features in each channel's signal path also drive the noise floor upward.

The same noise floor issue applies to larger bass amps. An amp that's 1000 watts is 6dB noisier than an amp that's 250 watts (with all else being the same) Noise issues on a bass, or with pedals may not be a problem at 250 watts but could easily become a problem at 1000 watts. Not many bass amp designers also have design experience with big pro audio gear, especially consoles. Since that's the design world I came from (in addition to actually being on the road using the gear), I am keenly aware of noise floor management, what really makes a difference and what's just a waste of money (even if the marketing guys make it sound really sexy).



Absolutely! My entire professional life revolved around improving noise floors. It's a great way to make a living, though under-recognized until there's a problem.

Makes sense. But you would also never (I'm sure) plug that rig into the last empty slot on a power strip in the midst of a knotted up ball of cables in the corner of the 5x5x2 stage at Salty Joe's Clam Shack, or the wall outlet next to the water heater in the basement of Killface Records.

We don't all have the luxury of that choice.

 

[callofcthulhu]

OK. I wasn't sure if you had something specific in mind when you said "souped up."

Big board?
Do you mean Pedal Board? Mixing Board? But not an amp?
What you are protecting may change how you protect it.

But again, "power conditioner" is a somewhat generic term and often used incorrectly.
It's like saying I need a vehicle, but not knowing if you are hauling kids to school or tons of bricks to the job site.

IMHO there is no harm in someone purchasing some sort of surge suppressor for their gear.
But if they expect that surge suppressor to regulate voltage or filter noise when it was not designed to do that, or they expect it to just fix bad electricity, whatever that means, they may be disappointed.

As I said earlier, there is no one device that will fix every problem that someone has, or thinks they have.
The whole subject of "cleaning up" power is a lifelong endeavor for some. It's not as simple as going to the store and buying throat lozenges when you have a sore throat.

It is nearly impossible to simplify this subject in a forum like this and give specific answers to what are less than specific problems. The expertise runs from "I know nothing" to "I am the lifelong pursuit guy."
Actually it is even worse at the one end because less than "I know nothing" are those who think they know something, or have heard someone else say... or read something on-line...
This is why I think it is important, that when you are having a specific problem you need to bring in someone who has the expertise and can actually eliminate what isn't causing the problem. He must, essentially be able to lay hands on it.

So we arrive in town at 6:30, we load in at 7:00, sound check at 7:30, and first note is at 8:00. When in that timeframe does the band's hired electrician meet with the venue owner to discuss why the noise floor of the bassist's rig, stage right, is 8 dB louder than the (already not imperceptible) noise floor of the guitarists' rig, stage left?

Yes, during sound check we already tried ground lifting everything in his signal chain.

And at yesterday's gig 200 miles away, it was the guitarist's rig that was noisier and the bass was dead silent.

 

[DrummerwStrings]

But you just said that those products are:
If I wanted to make the more cost effective investment, how would I go about doing it?

Make sure your General Contractor is making sure the building is built right the first time.

 

[Deezer Butler]

Anyone still using them? I used to see them all over the place, but my understanding is that you really don't need them. Modern amps have that kind of function built-in anyway.

Thoughts?

I have a Furman. I'm not sure if it does actually protect your gear or not. I can say it is convenient for plugging in your rack gear.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

So we arrive in town at 6:30, we load in at 7:00, sound check at 7:30, and first note is at 8:00. When in that timeframe does the band's hired electrician meet with the venue owner to discuss why the noise floor of the bassist's rig, stage right, is 8 dB louder than the (already not imperceptible) noise floor of the guitarists' rig, stage left?

Yes, during sound check we already tried ground lifting everything in his signal chain.

And at yesterday's gig 200 miles away, it was the guitarist's rig that was noisier and the bass was dead silent.

Why would you bring in an electrician for a one time show in East Bumford? Be realistic.
If you're gonna be on the road, you're gonna have to put up with that stuff. It's a part of the deal.
If you play a gig with garbage power, a second time, that's on you.

If you are having some recurring problem that you can't solve on your own, you need to get someone on site who can help.
My suggestion was for someone who has a recurring problem they need to solve. Not a $200 gig at a dive bar that you booked because it was on the way to tomorrow night's big show where you were headlining. "We can take Friday night off of get paid."

>>> There is no magic box for this stuff. There is no -one size fits all- <<<

As you've seen, there is some gear out there that stands up to this stuff better than others. Perhaps it's time to look into something more robust if you're having continuing problems. Do you brush your teeth with an egg beater? No, you use a toothbrush because that's what works best.

You don't need to be busting my chops because I can't give you an answer that will fix your problems.
Please stop trying to paint me into a corner on this.

The advice you get here is worth every penny you've paid for it and if you're lucky it's worth a bit more.
If you want someone to tell you what you want to hear, you're going to have to pony up.
I'm not that guy.

Thank you.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

"Please note that this tester does not indicate ground quality or reversal of grounded and grounding conductors."

They do catch some bad wiring. And there are newer ones with better ground testing but they cost $10 more and still miss some bad wiring jobs. Trip to gig is probably more dangerous than the venue wiring, drive a car with a seat belt and air bag - and now collision avoidance. Then somebody does something really stupid.
Old community halls and houses of worship are the worst. Some volunteer does the electrical. Good-hearted but could be a problem.

EXACT-A-MOONDO!

Short of having an electrician do an inspection, there are things that simple equipment just can't tell you.
And even if it's a brand new wiring job, inspected, passed and wonderful. That's no guarantee that you won't have other problems due to outside influences.

People, especially in fully developed nations, take their electrical power for granted.
"It's just a plug in the wall, how hard can this be."

This is highly technical stuff, very involved, very complex.
People go to school for years, get advanced degrees, have lots of experience in the field, and still might have to work long and hard to figure out what's going on when there is a strange problem. And when you start adding in RFI/EMI, other weird noise generating sources of interference, you start crossing into other disciplines on top of being a power distribution engineer.

This is hard stuff.

 

[voided3]

Things I knew going into this thread:

1. Not all power conditioners actually "condition" your power, but have other conveniences.
2. Most bassists don't use power conditioners anymore because rack gear is less common due to the popularity of compact class D heads.
3. Crappy power = crappy power, regardless of what you plug into it.
4. I have found the compact power conditioners I use on gigs do filter out line noise, but probably won't turn 200 feet of extension cord on outdoor wedding gigs into flawless electricity.

Things I learned from this thread:

1. Even expensive power conditioning solutions may not actually condition your power to the point of having a noticeable improvement.
2. Some well regarded and expensive power conditioning/UPS/regulator solutions might actually make things worse, especially if used for a different application than intended.
3. We are all defenseless pawns at the mercy of the electron gods and should probably quit pretending that the human race has managed to successfully conquer and master the raw, unadulterated, natural power of electricity and make it so a pristine 120 volts is consistently squeezed out of some strands of copper over every square inch of the planet.

 

[DrummerwStrings]

People, especially in fully developed nations, take their electrical power for granted

Here's an example:

I have a TC Electronic BH 250.
A few days ago we had an electrical problem on the power grid and the voltage went up to almost 400 volts for about 2 hours. (I live in Africa in case you wonder.....) Every single light and appliance in the house got fried. My amp was plugged in but not running when this happened, however, since that day it doesn't work anymore, when i switch it on nothing happens.
Is it possible that the amp got damaged even though it was not running at the time?

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Just for everyone's information I am including the link to the APC website's page for the 8PT3 "Surge Arrest Surge Protector" that I mentioned early in this thread. Like I said, I use a bunch of these at work for audio and broadcast equipment.
These typically also have a UPS in front of them to keep things on the air when we transition to generator power at the loss of commercial A.C.

This outlet strip/surge device is pretty basic as it does not include filtering. I have other more expensive surge suppressors also in use that do have filtering.

One use where I employ these is with our remote broadcast gear. This means going to some remote location to connect equipment for live broadcasts.

I've never lost a piece of equipment due to a power line surge that was connected to one of these. I have no way of knowing that I've ever experienced a surge that would have caused a problem, though these devices are supposed to give me an indication that there has been a surge. Also, if this device gets damaged by a surge, it is supposed to shut down so as to not let other surges through to the connected gear and will keep equipment disconnected from the power line until the unit is repaired or replaced. That has never happened either. It is more likely that we have been lucky and have not been hit by anything damaging.

APC Home Office SurgeArrest 8 Outlet with Phone (Splitter) Protection, 120V - APC - United States

Looking at the box it came in and looking on line, APC offers a pretty healthy product protection plan for connected equipment. This appears to be a "we'll pay to fix your damaged gear if you qualify and meet all of the conditions" arrangement. Though you should read it yourself in case I misread or misinterpreted anything.

The manual (see link below) includes a page that discusses the conditions and procedures for filing a claim for equipment that was damaged while connected to this device. It's all fine print stuff, but worth looking at.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Here's an example:

I had also been following the saga of the TC250 in the other thread.
To address that question, at least partially, a lot of equipment that is plugged into the wall and "turned off" is still getting power to the most basic parts of the gear. A good example is a TV that uses a remote control. When you turn your TV "off" you are shutting down most of it. But it needs to be powered up just enough to run the electronics inside the TV that pick up the signal from the remote.

The only way to know for certain is to pull the plug from the wall when not in use.

In the case of the amp, and depending on where the power switch is located electrically, some of it may be connected to the wall outlet even though it it shut off. Furthermore, the TC250 has some microprocessor (just like a computer) electronics that is much more sensitive than just normal amplifier parts. Though unless you have a full tube rig, many modern amps have pretty sensitive electronics, regardless of having microprocessors or not. And he got about double the normal voltage. This was not really a typical surge event. A surge suppressor may or may not have helped.

 

[Josh Kneisel]

I use them, but I've been told here they are snake oil... they make me feel better and provide a convenient rack mounted power supply that isn't complete garbage though so I still use mine.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I use them, but I've been told here they are snake oil... they make me feel better and provide a convenient rack mounted power supply that isn't complete garbage though so I still use mine.

I say believe who/what you will, do your own research.
In your case, if you need/want a rackmount power strip you might as well get some surge and filtering with it.
I don't think those are garbage usually. They might help, they might not, but especially the metal ones, like the rackmounts are usually a little better quality.
I will be the dissenting view... You've now heard that here as well. Sorry to add to your confusion. Glad to help you feel better about what you have.
Just don't expect surge/filter devices to "condition" or actually do more than surge/filter.

 

[BadExample]

I've got 6 or 7 years, 24/7/365 on: http://www.cnaweb.com/1u-12-outlet-rack-mount-power-strip-19-inch-format.aspx No BS, No "protection." No LED's. It just breaks out the power for more outlets and has a basic circuit breaker.

If you want a surge protector, get an isobar in a metal box (TripLite). You probably don't need it, but it offers real surge protection and I've used those for decades on sensitive instruments with linear and switching power supplies. It's the only power strip I allow in my house for unattended use. These don't melt, burn or cause problems. I've had hundreds in use and recommended 1000's to customer, without a hitch.

If you have no good earth/safety ground, forget it. Pray.

 

[agedhorse]

Puts a new perspective on some advice my grandfather gave me - when you walk into a bar, look for ways to get out of the bar.

Something we do every time we load into a new venue.

 

[agedhorse]

Note that spike protection will not protect at all against common mode voltage spikes without a solid low impedance, low inductance ground path back to the service ground bonding network.

 

[mesaplayer83]

Puts a new perspective on some advice my grandfather gave me - when you walk into a bar, look for ways to get out of the bar.

Solid advice right there...

 

[Rich Fiscus]

Note that spike protection will not protect at all against common mode voltage spikes without a solid low impedance, low inductance ground path back to the service ground bonding network.

Like most people around here, I live in a house that was upgraded from 2 to 3 prong outlets without the requisite premises grounding. Shortly after we moved in, the landlord had the service upgraded to add a circuit for the dryer, and also had the electrician run a ground spike and give me actual grounded outlets for my computers.

For the first 2 years we lived here, we had a lot of power issues caused by the power company failing to trim the trees around the power lines. Every time there was a breeze 15mph or higher, we had power "events" throughout the day. Occasionally a big enough spike would come down the line to reset all the electronics in the house.

Once my computers were plugged into the new, grounded, circuit, they became immune to the power events. Anything plugged into the old circuits, like the occasional computer I had setup for testing, would still reset. But even my ancient server, with drives that sound like miniature jet turbines when they spin up, handled it without issue. It was plugged straight into the wall, just like my desktop.

That radically changed my perspective on both premises grounding and electronics protection. From my days in IT, plus a couple semesters each of analog and digital circuits classes, I thought I had a pretty good handle on power and grounding. However, I mostly just thought in terms of safety.

In reality, today's sophisticated circuit protection schemes can be heavily reliant on good grounding. Very often, that protection is robust enough to allow devices to operate under conditions that would surprise most people, but the engineers can only do so much. If you don't provide the ground, they can't promise the same level of protection or reliability.

 

[Danny2454]

The Furman P-1800 PF R is a fully featured power conditioner, designed specifically for use with instrument amplifiers and other high-current equipment. That's because the P-1800 PF R keeps a 45A peak current reservoir and sports Clear Tone Technology to ensure your power's giving you a full sound and improved dynamic response. Other features, including famous Furman SMP protection, Linear Filtering Technology, and Extreme Voltage Shutdown

Key words: Current Reservoir - this resonated with me. I've had shows (digital amp) where it's all good, and at some point the crisp punch I was enjoying - dips, sags, or otherwise becomes less. So, I tweak the volume. Then the power comes back, and I get the look (the you're too loud look). And so, I've been searching for a power solution. This is one solution that seems to make the most sense. Haven't tried it yet - but would like the hear the community thoughts.