Double Bass Remic Question

[rickwolff]

Rick,
Man, I love the sound you get out of that bass, it's exquisite. We'll if you're getting more out of the Remic Red with the ART, then something's going on. You're correct, that lower Phantom voltage effects the noise floor of the mic.

Looking at the Genzler pannel on their site, where the heck is the Phantom Power switch? I don't see one. Regardless, the Remic has a very linear gain structure, similar to the way the EA Doubler works. The volume comes up

gradually. You're also right about using the Remic under the tailpice, it sounds far better in that position than under the fingerboard. Plus, it gets in the way of your thumb as you move into the upper positions.

Ric,

Thanks for the compliment on my sound. Coming from you that means a lot. I think I chose the right bass for my particular needs and tastes, and, as you have seen, I have ventured far down the rabbit hole of stings, pickups, amps, etc...etc...etc... but I am really quite happy with my present setup. That's not to say I am ready to give up my 'Gear Junkie' status (the reports of my retirement appear to have been premature.) I'm still gassing for a Tonedexter and a better French Bow. I'd better book some more gigs or SWMBO may want to clip my wings again.

Re: the phantom power on the Genzler - there is no switch - it is always on. Therefore you would need to isolate a ribbon mic or anything else that Doesn't Want phantom power.

 

[Ric Vice]

Ric,

Thanks for the compliment on my sound. Coming from you that means a lot. I think I chose the right bass for my particular needs and tastes, and, as you have seen, I have ventured far down the rabbit hole of stings, pickups, amps, etc...etc...etc... but I am really quite happy with my present setup. That's not to say I am ready to give up my 'Gear Junkie' status (the reports of my retirement appear to have been premature.) I'm still gassing for a Tonedexter and a better French Bow. I'd better book some more gigs or SWMBO may want to clip my wings again.

Re: the phantom power on the Genzler - there is no switch - it is always on. Therefore you would need to isolate a ribbon mic or anything else that Doesn't Want phantom power.

Ok, now I get it. So when you're inputing a pickup, does the jack disengate the phantom?

 

[rickwolff]

Ok, now I get it. So when you're inputing a pickup, does the jack disengate the phantom?

I believe the phantom is ONLY on the XLR inputs (I think). EACH channel has both a 1/4 inch and an XLR input.

 

[s0707]

Perhaps something like this would help: SB-48 - Radial Engineering

 

[Ric Vice]

I believe the phantom is ONLY on the XLR inputs (I think). EACH channel has both a 1/4 inch and an XLR input.

Makes total sense, that way you don't have to remember to switch the Phantom on, something that I frequently forget on the Grace Felix and then wonder why my Remic isn't

working.

Perhaps something like this would help: SB-48 - Radial Engineering

I have one of those, but unfortunately Rick's in Raleigh NC, and I live in St. Louis. I think that Radial has discontinued that device, which is a shame.

Audio clips comparing the Remic Green to 1) AKG D-112 dynamic mic, and 2) ATM 350 clip-on condenser.

The VIDEOS are primarily the acoustic sound of the bass going into the on-board XY mics on the Zoom H6. To hear the direct mic recordings click on the Soundcloud clips.





Individual tracks recorded from the PRE-EQ DI:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[rickwolff]

Makes total sense, that way you don't have to remember to switch the Phantom on, something that I frequently forget on the Grace Felix and then wonder why my Remic isn't

working.



I have one of those, but unfortunately Rick's in Raleigh NC, and I live in St. Louis. I think that Radial has discontinued that device, which is a shame.

My ART Tube PR provides 48volts phantom, but so far, at least, even though it give me lots more head room, it doesn't sound as good as going straight into the Genzler. I don't think the 48 volts is the problem. I think it's just the low output of the Remic Green (relative to other pups and mics). The reason it works with your Felix is that you are boosting the signal before it gets to the amp.

 

[Ric Vice]

The new mic performed swimmingly at the gig last night. The highs are not as brittle as the original, and it has a good deal more gain before feedback.

It has a mid-range bump around 450, and another around 200, plus puts out even MORE low end than the original green. All easily notched out, but Thorkild is still designing it based on feedback (no pun intended) from myself and other bassists he knows.

What I admire about Remic is the commitment to work on improving their designs. I think they are very close to coming up with a microphone with output close to a pickup, the timbre of a microphone, and the convienence of a removable mount that dosen’t rattle or mar the top.

 

[Adam Booker]

My ART Tube PR provides 48volts phantom, but so far, at least, even though it give me lots more head room, it doesn't sound as good as going straight into the Genzler. I don't think the 48 volts is the problem. I think it's just the low output of the Remic Green (relative to other pups and mics). The reason it works with your Felix is that you are boosting the signal before it gets to the amp.

Well that settles it, then, Rick. You just need to buy a FELiX!

 

[rickwolff]

Well that settles it, then, Rick. You just need to buy a FELiX!

 

[Ric Vice]

My ART Tube PR provides 48volts phantom, but so far, at least, even though it give me lots more head room, it doesn't sound as good as going straight into the Genzler. I don't think the 48 volts is the problem. I think it's just the low output of the Remic Green (relative to other pups and mics). The reason it works with your Felix is that you are boosting the signal before it gets to the amp.

Believe me Rick the Remic Green has lots of output and headroom into either the Grace Felix or the Headway EDB-2. I will concede that both those pre amps

have lots of gain. The Remic Green also works just fine into a FOH system. Just my take of course, but I think this points to the input structure of the Genzler.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I just remembered that if you check the Phantom Power voltage of the Genzler amp it's not running at 48 Volts.

Just had a look at the manual and the phantom power of the Genzler is only 12 Volts.
It is also mentioned that this is enough for most live mics.

Since most live mics are either dynamic (non-ribbon) or electret condensers that should work, because the electrets (pre-charged plate) only need to power an FET, similar to the HPFpre or Quick'n'dirty preamps from Francis Deck.
But in case of a "real" condenser not only th much more complex internal preamp has to be powered but also the plate of the capsule has to be loaded by phantom power. A lower loading gives less output signal which results in a higher noise floor if amplified to the same level as with the intended phantom power voltage.
So with the lower phantom voltage you might loose about 12 dB (not completely sure about the amount). Also the internal preamp of the might be underpowered which might result in distortion or not (probably starting at higher sound pressure levels).

But the point with the 12V permanent phantom power is, that it seems to be designed for electret mics, so the higher mic signal level of an (electret) condenser might be expected by design and therefor the gain maximum is limited to that. Higher gain mic preamps with a good sound can get rather expensive, so that might have been a reason for this design too.
BTW, electrets usually work with 9 to 12 volts (some even with less) and to connect them to a 48 volts phantom mic input a phantom voltage reducer circuit is needed (often in either a mic preamp or an XLR-to-trs1/8" adapter).

And yes, the ART tube pre doesn't have a good sound, it makes better chinese microphones sound like a less good cheap chinese mic. I was disappointed too when I got mine (used), but what can one expect from such a cheap mic preamp. Good ones are really expensive.

 

[Adam Booker]

Snagged one of these off Reverb for $20. Dead flat, quiet as a mouse. I like it better than my Radial SB48UB.

 

[Adam Booker]

Photo added

 

[Ric Vice]

Photo added

Nice, looks smaller and flatter than the Radial Stage Bug 48v.

 

[Adam Booker]

Nice, looks smaller and flatter than the Radial Stage Bug 48v.

Flatter, yes. The SB had a nasty buzz to it. This is my backup in case (heaven forbid) FELiX dies.

 

[Ric Vice]

Just had a look at the manual and the phantom power of the Genzler is only 12 Volts.
It is also mentioned that this is enough for most live mics.

That's curious to me, because DPA did some testing with their 4099 mic's and it's very apparent that things change when you lower the voltage to the Phantom.

Since most live mics are either dynamic (non-ribbon) or electret condensers that should work, because the electrets (pre-charged plate) only need to power an FET, similar to the HPFpre or Quick'n'dirty preamps from Francis Deck.
But in case of a "real" condenser not only th much more complex internal preamp has to be powered but also the plate of the capsule has to be loaded by phantom power. A lower loading gives less output signal which results in a higher noise floor if amplified to the same level as with the intended phantom power voltage. So with the lower phantom voltage you might loose about 12 dB (not completely sure about the amount). Also the internal preamp of the might be underpowered which might result in distortion or not (probably starting at higher sound pressure levels).

But the point with the 12V permanent phantom power is, that it seems to be designed for electret mics, so the higher mic signal level of an (electret) condenser might be expected by design and therefor the gain maximum is limited to that. Higher gain mic preamps with a good sound can get rather expensive, so that might have been a reason for this design too. BTW, electrets usually work with 9 to 12 volts (some even with less) and to connect them to a 48 volts phantom mic input a phantom voltage reducer circuit is needed (often in either a mic preamp or an XLR-to-trs1/8" adapter).
Good ones are really expensive.

It seems to be that once you go from 18v to 12v the SPL and V RMS really drops of dramatically. So that would explain why the Headway EDB-2 works pretty well and 12 volt's don't

 

[rickwolff]

That's curious to me, because DPA did some testing with their 4099 mic's and it's very apparent that things change when you lower the voltage to the Phantom.

View attachment 3214596







It seems to be that once you go from 18v to 12v the SPL and V RMS really drops of dramatically. So that would explain why the Headway EDB-2 works pretty well and 12 volt's don't

It may well be that the Remic requires more than 12v phantom in order to have sufficient output. I don't really have a way to test that since my only other phantom power source is also a pre-amp and I don't know what the parity (non-boosted) setting would be for that.

I do know that the 12v phantom on the Genzler DOES work fine for all my other condenser mics, including the Xlson, The ATM 350, and my small diaphragm recording mics.

 

[wathaet]

The minimum voltage and amperage draw depends entirely on the mic.
To state that 12v "is enough" for most live mics is setting the bar rather low.
Most professional mics require p48, not p12 to perform at spec. A Schoeps cmc5 may well work with 12v, but you are starving the mic and will get audible degradation (detectable in ABX). If you have p12, it is a sure sign that the entire unit is designed around lowest possible cost with little concern for quality.
Also look at current draw, low end designs tend not to stay on the safe side there.
Earthworks mics need 48v and around 10mA and are about the highest draw in mainstream equipment. Drop the voltage and you will have a hard time delivering enough amps as that number goes up. I would expect professional gear to deliver 48v +-2v and 10mA.



Current draws in some standard mics:
Older Schoeps and Neumann with output transformers 0.5-0.7mA
Shure KSM 5.5mA
Shoeps CMC5/5d CCM 4-5mA
original AKG C 451 6mA
Neumann TLM series 2-4mA
Josephson Transformerless series 5-6 mA
Theoretical max current draw for P48 is 14mA due to the 6.8k resistors in series on the supply end.
With P12 not really possible to supply enough current to all but the first ones I list above.

 

[flatback]

Yeah i agree .., you cant test a high end mic that is made for 48 with 12. If water drips out rhe faucet it does not mean there is preasure for a shower

 

[Ric Vice]

It may well be that the Remic requires more than 12v phantom in order to have sufficient output. I don't really have a way to test that since my only other phantom power source is also a pre-amp and I don't know what the parity (non-boosted) setting would be for that.

I do know that the 12v phantom on the Genzler DOES work fine for all my other condenser mics, including the Xlson, The ATM 350, and my small diaphragm recording mics.

Well,
Here's the interesting thing Rick. I ran a test of the Xlson with the Headway EDB-2 and it sounded fine. No issues as far as I could tell. Same for the Remic Green. No issues there either.
So it's anybodies guess as to what the issue(s) are with the Remic Green and the Genzler. Here's the file for the Xlson and Headway EDB-2. I'll try and record the Remic Green into the EDB-2.
That should tell us something, I guess.