Double Bass Remic Question

[DoubleMIDI]

As I said before, it seems that the Genzler 12V phantom was designed for electrets, not for "real" (studio) condensers. And electrets only need to power one FET and this is probably below 1 mA.
I guess that 12 Volts were available from the power supply or could easily got from the PS voltages and 48 volts would have needed either a different transformer or an expensive DC-DC converter which might not be audio friendly.
So this is a cheap phantom power supply for electrets only (and with some luck and degraded audio quality for some "real" condensers).

The table for the DPA is interesting, but it misses the output amplitude variation with varying phantom voltage. I think it is indirectly there by the signal-to-noise ratio, but I think the noise is rather constant and the capsule voltage and therefor the output voltage drops.

Anyway, for a "real" condenser with its integrated preamplifier the preamplifier needs a certain voltage to operate correctly. It depends on the mic if the operations voltage of the internal preamp is made by regulation of the input phantom power to a certain voltage or simply by dividing the input phantom power by a certain divisor. The latter one would give less good results with low phantom power voltages, but if the phantom power goes below the voltage need for the preamp, even the former case delivers bad results.
Designers of studio microphones can expect a phantom power of 48 volts, since this is the studio standard and designing a mic for lower phantom voltages gives a less good result than designing it for 48 volts only. Why should they design a less good mic that works at low phantom power voltages?

Genzler probably should be more concrete that the phantom power is designed for electret microphones and connecting studio level mics in most cases need a separate 48 volts phantom power unit. Perhaps they should have put the smaller XLR-like connector (mini-XLR?) that many electret mics have at the amp or add an adapter to that kind of connector.
They kind of say it in the manual, but the hint to the electrets is missing. With a mini-XLR connector at he amp that would have been more clear.

 

[wathaet]

It depends on the mic if the operations voltage of the internal preamp is made by regulation of the input phantom power to a certain voltage or simply by dividing the input phantom power by a certain divisor. The latter one would give less good results with low phantom power voltages, but if the phantom power goes below the voltage need for the preamp, even the former case delivers bad results.

Internal voltage regulation only helps if the preamp can supply the subsequent increase in current. 2 mA currentdraw at 48v suddenly becomes 8mA with 12v.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Internal voltage regulation only helps if the preamp can supply the subsequent increase in current. 2 mA currentdraw at 48v suddenly becomes 8mA with 12v.

Not necessarily. If the preamp needs 2 mA at 12 volts and the rest of 36 volts is just heated away then the total consumption is 2 mA (plus a very small amount of keeping the capsule charged).
I doubt that an efficient DC-DC converter is used inside a mic. And when voltage drops and the resistance by the circuit keeps the same, the current drops too (ohm's law).

 

[rickwolff]

Well, I hate to burst all-yall's bubble regarding the 12v phantom on the Genzler (the plural of "y'all" is "all-y'all".

I just got the Remic Red and installed it side-by-side with the Remic Green. You may recall I had to 'dime' the gain to get much out of the Green. Well, not so with the Red. Setting the Red Channel gain to 1 was equal to setting the Green channel gain to 10.

Is the Green possibly defective???

The both came very well padded and the boxes showed no sign of abuse or crushing.

Next, I'm thinking I'll do audio clips into two different channels of the recorder at the same time to show the difference in sound between the Red and the Green.

BTW, I was able to get some feedback from the Red when I cranked it up a bit. No feedback from the Green, but, again, I can't get as much volume out of that one.

 

[wathaet]

Hate to burst your own bubble, but you seem to miss the point which is that 12v may very well impede its performance. More noise, higher bass distortion, less headroom etc.
But it could have issues. I once had a 414 on an orchestra session that would cut out with long cables, the other four were fine on the same channel/cable. It checked out at akg, but I suspected a poor solderpoint somewhere. Check it against an identical model and see if output and distortion is the same or not.

 

[rickwolff]

Hate to burst your own bubble, but you seem to miss the point which is that 12v may very well impede its performance. More noise, higher bass distortion, less headroom etc.
But it could have issues. I once had a 414 on an orchestra session that would cut out with long cables, the other four were fine on the same channel/cable. It checked out at akg, but I suspected a poor solderpoint somewhere. Check it against an identical model and see if output and distortion is the same or not.

No, I actually did get that.

My primary issue/question was whether or not 12v phantom was sufficient to power the Remic mic so that it would give me enough volume/headroom. I understand that less than 48v will result in less than 'optimum performance', but it's my opinion that that is far more of a concern in a studio that in a live setting where subtle differences are difficult if not impossible to detect. My experience has been that every other mic I have used (and now also, apparently the Remic Red, will perform adequately in a live situation when run on 12v phantom. Would you want to do that in a studio? No, I'm sure you wouldn't and neither would I. If I can run my mic (which I can) on 12v which my Genzler amp provides, rather than bringing another piece of external gear to supply 48v when I probably won't hear any difference, guess what. I'm going to leave the extra gear at home.

 

[wathaet]

Well, there we are very different. Always sound your best.

No, I actually did get that.

My primary issue/question was whether or not 12v phantom was sufficient to power the Remic mic so that it would give me enough volume/headroom. I understand that less than 48v will result in less than 'optimum performance', but it's my opinion that that is far more of a concern in a studio that in a live setting where subtle differences are difficult if not impossible to detect. My experience has been that every other mic I have used (and now also, apparently the Remic Red, will perform adequately in a live situation when run on 12v phantom. Would you want to do that in a studio? No, I'm sure you wouldn't and neither would I. If I can run my mic (which I can) on 12v which my Genzler amp provides, rather than bringing another piece of external gear to supply 48v when I probably won't hear any difference, guess what. I'm going to leave the extra gear at home.

 

[wathaet]

All the little insignificant differences accumulate and the sum of those decisions make a difference.

 

[rickwolff]

Well, there we are very different. Always sound your best.

Obviously, you don't know me. One of the pianists I work with calls me a 'tone Nazi'.

I haven't spent years and thousands of dollars trying different basses, amps, strings, pickups, mics, etc....etc in order to sound my best. But I judge that sound with my ears. If you need an oscilloscope or other test equipment to determine a difference, then that is a difference not worth worrying about in my opinion.

Since you appear to keep your profile 'private', I have no way of assessing your bona fides so perhaps I should just not worry about your opinion. I frequently post clips I have made in experimenting with new and different gear in my pursuit of 'sounding my best'. I have never claimed to be any better or anything other than what I am. I have, however, reached the point where my modest artistic efforts give me a great deal of satisfaction. And that, plus playing my best so as to support my fellow band members is really just about I care about.

Perhaps you would like to follow suit and let us all see just what kind of talent and performance ability is behind your opinions.

 

[wathaet]

Obviously, you don't know me. One of the pianists I work with calls me a 'tone Nazi'.

I haven't spent years and thousands of dollars trying different basses, amps, strings, pickups, mics, etc....etc in order to do anything but sound my best. But I judge that sound with my ears. If you need an oscilloscope or other test equipment to determine a difference, then that is a difference not worth worrying about in my opinion.

Since you appear to keep your profile 'private', I have no way of assessing your bona fides so perhaps I should just not worry about your opinion. I frequently post clips I have made in experimenting with new and different gear in my pursuit of 'sounding my best'. I have never claimed to be any better or anything other than what I am. I have, however, reached the point where my modest artistic efforts give me a great deal of satisfaction. And that, plus playing my best so as to support my fellow band members is really just about I care about.

Perhaps you would like to follow suit and let us all see just what kind of talent and performance ability is behind your opinions.

Obviously, you don't know me. One of the pianists I work with calls me a 'tone Nazi'.

I haven't spent years and thousands of dollars trying different basses, amps, strings, pickups, mics, etc....etc in order to do anything but sound my best. But I judge that sound with my ears. If you need an oscilloscope or other test equipment to determine a difference, then that is a difference not worth worrying about in my opinion.

Since you appear to keep your profile 'private', I have no way of assessing your bona fides so perhaps I should just not worry about your opinion. I frequently post clips I have made in experimenting with new and different gear in my pursuit of 'sounding my best'. I have never claimed to be any better or anything other than what I am. I have, however, reached the point where my modest artistic efforts give me a great deal of satisfaction. And that, plus playing my best so as to support my fellow band members is really just about I care about.

Perhaps you would like to follow suit and let us all see just what kind of talent and performance ability is behind your opinions.

For real? You are calling me out for not showing you my CV?
Second time this has happened here.

 

[rickwolff]

For real? You are calling me out for not showing you my CV?
Second time this has happened here.

So why so shy?

Obviously, with your credentials you can play circles around me with one of your hands tied behind your back.

That still doesn't mean I have to agree with you about microphones and phantom voltage.

 

[wathaet]

So why so shy?

Obviously, with your credentials you can play circles around me with one of your hands tied behind your back.

That still doesn't mean I have to agree with you about microphones and phantom voltage.

What is wrong with you?
Please delete my info ASAP

 

[rickwolff]

What is wrong with you?
Please delete my info ASAP

Sorry, didn't realize you were in Witsec.

 

[lrhbass]

Rick, the I have both Remic's, the Red has more gain than the Green. That is using the Grace pre.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Rick could check it himself by using his ART tube pre for both mics with 48 volts phantom power. Either by changing quickly from one mic to the other (connect both with a cable and change at the amp) or by recording one first and the other one afterwards (or even both at once if possible).

 

[Nathan Levine]

I am going to weigh in and say that I would be surprised if the Green is defective since it seems to work fine with the ART preamp you have tried. Perhaps you know someone with an Acoustic Image head? Try plugging both Remics into a bass head that puts out 48v and see what you get. My guess is you'll find they both sound pretty good.

 

[Ric Vice]

I am going to weigh in and say that I would be surprised if the Green is defective since it seems to work fine with the ART preamp you have tried. Perhaps you know someone with an Acoustic Image head? Try plugging both Remics into a bass head that puts out 48v and see what you get. My guess is you'll find they both sound pretty good.

Agreed Nathan,
Here's the deal, at least from my perspective. The Remic Red is a incredible microphone, in the studio and it can work live if you're in drumerless bands or trios. I have an example of a recording we did
last summer, that I'll post later today. The Remic Green is better suited to live performance, FOH it's great, I've used it several times for that. Regardless of the microphone, playing into a amp, creates it's own
set of problems. One is feedback, another is EQ, and finally there's the issue of Phantom Voltages, that vary between amps. When you have 48volts, great EQ, with Notch and Low Cut filters you're
going to get the best sound. That said, lower phantom power changes the playing field, so all bets ar off. Just my take however

 

[logdrum]

for those of us fortunate enough to have or have had both the green and red Remics, how often, if at all, have you used the red on a gig. I am curious, as mine has been sitting on the shelf for a long time, and I’m GASing for something right now. I’ve been perfectly happy with the green one dang near every gig.

Thanks!

I accidently made my Remic Red useable on a live gig. You may need a notch filter of some sort. My 3/4 has a very high fingerboard and unless itis at the end it falls off. So in a pinch I stuck a wind screen for my CAD mic so lengthen the foam but at one point also covered the side ports. Well it lowered the fidelity on the high end but also reduced the feedback. SoI went even further and wrapped it gently with microfiber cloth and I can use it now for gigs. Before it was sometimes impossible to use it even in a mixed studio setting* unless there are shields or you are in an iso specially if it is a loud band . You can also get away without the notch filter but you need to EQ it a bit. With the cloth or foam trick you need a real 48v phantom power so it doesn't sound too muffled.

* In this recording session - no headphones used so everyone needed to hear the bass and only 2 to 4 mics were used but they wanted the bass recorded direct. I needed an amp. I was also using my 1/2 and it is a quiet one.

 

[Grant the Canuk]

The output amplitude from a microphone (even a condenser which has a higher output amplitude than a dynamic mic) is a lot lower than a piezo or even passive electromagnetic pickup. Usually there are mic preamps in the battery adapter for the typical double bass microphones (at least for my AT 35 and also for AKG electrets like the C411). So using the ART tube pre is a good idea, since you als need phantom power.

If your Genzler has an XLR in the gain should be adjustable for mic level input, but it might be limited to avoid harm to the amp when fed in with a instrument or line level signal.
And it is reasonable that the gain needs to be set to (almost) maximal position since microphone levels are the lowest ones in audio technology. A higher gain (like for dynamic, specially ribbon, mics) would need a very good mic amplifier that is expensive and probably never used by most buyers, so the limit for condensers is reasonable.

BTW, there is something similar like the FEThead from the same company that passes phantom power to the mic (needed for condensers, deadly for ribbons) which might work better with a lower sensitivity input, but you still need an amp with XLR and phantom power for that.

Yes, I got one of those FEThead preamps. It works pretty well. Adds about 8Db of gain to the signal I think.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Yes, I got one of those FEThead preamps. It works pretty well. Adds about 8Db of gain to the signal I think.

A FEThead makes a weak mic signal stronger, but 8dB of additional gain is not enough to bring a typical mic signal level to instrument level amplitudes.

Since the FEThead needs phantom power, it is usually connected to a mic input. Unless you have a mic with a hot signal level that should be OK.

To bring a mic signal to the level of a TS instrument input, there is a lot more amplification needed than 8dB (something between 20 and 40 dB).
You might open your amps gain completely to get part of that high amplification needed, but even with an additional 8dB you won't get the full power of the amp (that you might not need because of feedback issues at high volumes/high amplification factors).