Schroeder 1212L and Mini12+L Review

[burk48237]

I played thru the little Schro as well.
It had some issues in the tweet dept. I suspect the L-Pad myself.
We'll see.
It still put out enough to remind you that it's a serious cab.

As for the big ol' review that Burk posted.
I didn't get the chance to really talk to Burk about it, but his A/B with his LDS cabs wasn't fair IMO.

A 210 & 212 vs. a 212? Thats where I fall off in the review.
Now, your 212 alone vs. the Schro , yeah. But toss a 210 in there and it becomes apples to Volkswagons IMO.
Also, to be fair, you would really need to step back from the Schroeder to let it open up a bit. In that 12x12 room of yours, your sitting on top of the cab. And your LDS rig, well, the 210 is smacking you in the face, and the 212 is kicking you in the knees.
The Schro is also kicking you in the knees.
See what I'm getting at here?!?!
If not, an SVT810 is 4 Ohms, lets compare that to either the Schroeder or your rig!!

In my little studio when I have my AGTri112 on top of the AGTri115, I can hear the 112 better.
When I A/B'd the two cabs with the 112 still on top of the 115, the 112 sounded a bit louder.
Put them on the floor and step back, pretty much the same volume IMO. Tone, well thats another thread.

Your rig as a point of reference for tone (that your accoustomed to) I can see. But with the limited gigging that your new rig has seen, and the only gigging with the Schro was done by someone else (you checked it out only at your place).

Also, unless the SPL of your whole rig was in the low 90's then yeah, your rig would pretty much do to the Schro what that big ass Acoustic cab did to...well..everything!!! (that thing was good sounding with the 5's and tweet BTW)

What I percieve as your "fatigue" may in fact what would be the turning point on the gig with the Schroeder.
I find that almost everytime a cab sounds less than ideal in a shop, it will mostly sound good on the gig.
Case in point, my AccuGroove Tri112. By itself, alone in the cold dark underpinnings of an all bass store. Being looked upon like an unwelcome Pagen dinner guest at a Barmitzfa.....oops!! Sorry!Invalid Link Removed
Anyway, sitting there by itself it didn't kill you with the typical gobs of low end, heavy dip @ 1K for a scooped tone. Say like an Epifani or the like. It was very responsive and projected a lot of over-all even-ness across the frequency range. Great, but not "Oh My God, Instant Marcus" type of tone.
And thus far, it sounds stinkin great with a band.
But this is about the Schroeder.

My experience with them has been stellar on the gig. Not a thing that would fatigue you at all.
Burk, when Matt was playing it, did you get that feeling??

I'm sorry Steve, I don't mean to sound like a jerk. But as you noticed, I was a bit short on words today at LDS and wanted to run some of these things by you.

Mike, Part of the reason I did my test the way I did it was I wanted to see if the little box could replace the big boxes. The other reason I did it was I wanted to hear a fair loudness comparison and my 2 X 12 is 8 ohms I didn't feel it would have been a fair comparison. The only way I could have compared cabs was to compensate for the volume difference, the Eden puts out 150 watts less into 8 ohms and that is a big headroom difference and I felt it would introduce to many other variables.

As far as the fatigue, I played my rig tonight for about an hour when I got home and I did not experience any of hearing fatigue that I noticed with the Schoeders yesterday at the same volume. I know the schoeders project like a mo-fo and I realize my new rig has fairly limited gigging experience but it has been in some BIG rooms and I have had not projection issues. And this I'm judging from responses of other bass players in the house, Matt being one of them.

In all sincerity I didn't expect the Schro to sound as good, their was a big difference in speaker mass, I just wanted to see if it would compete. The big let down to me was the same big let down I had when I heard Matts on the gig. The bass sounded very articulate, clean and clear and that in and of itself was impressive, but it didn't have the bottom I expect to hear from a bass doing old school R & B tunes. Did it sound good? yes, but it was not the sound I was looking for. When I got home and tried it, I tried to get that type of tone, but the cab didn't seem to "warm up" no matter what I dialed in. The lack of high end response ( L pad or tweeter problem) exasperated my opinion, like I said, my NYC sounded like their was a blanket over the cab, but things can break in speakers and I understand that.

I am not saying Schoeders are bad cabs and I want to hear Kens 2112L with the WT 550 sometime, because as I remember that had a lot more low end. Ken loves the tone of the schroeders and all though ken and I are very close in our sound taste, he seems to like it a little more Hi-fi then I do. Thats why I prefer the eden over the thunderfunk. Now could I play a gig with Kens Celender/Thunderfunk/Schoeder rig? Off course. It's just not my first choice.

PS: I hope your feeling better.

 

[KJung]

Nice hang yesterday, and it was good seeing you all. I guess the above differences show that we all have different tones and sounds 'in our heads' that we want to hear. Also, as I've said many times before (and as Mike pointed out again above), there's also a very big difference in listening to a piece of gear 'solo' in a small room versus on a gig.

It sounds like Mike and I are coming from exactly the same place.... the only thing that really matters is how it sounds on the gig and out in the room, and that's a VERY different thing from how it sounds in the bedroom or basement in many occasions.

That being said, I was actually quite impressed with the Tri112. It did have that very 'upper mid present' tone, and with no L Pads, etc., that was the 'fixed tone' of the cab. However, similar to the Schroeder1212L and the Epi410UL, which are also very 'mid present', that tone seems to really work in a mix, and as a result, these very small cabs can do the job of a much larger, more traditionally designed rig.

However, if you are looking for big bottom, Steve is correct, you probably need a larger box. However, IMO, 'big bottom' is very over-rated out in the room for the type of music that Mike and I play, and that Matt was playing the other night. My strong preference is a bass that sits well in the mix, is articulate and warm, and that has a nice, usable, non floppy low end that anchors the gig. There are a number of newer cab designs out there, including the smaller Accugrooves (from what I heard yesterday), some of the Schroeder's, some of the EA's (Wizzy and NL210), some of the Epi's (112UL, 310UL and 410UL), the new Sadowsky 410, and some of the smaller Bergs (HT112 stack and HTs stack), that really seem to deliver on this.

I totally dig it! Obviously, this sound won't be for everyone!


PS.... the tweeter/L Pad, etc. is working fine on the 1212L. However, I too thought Steve's basses sounded very dull through that cab (they also have very dead strings on them). I have it hooked up now and its crisp and clear. I guess certain rooms and basses just don't click with some gear. All is well!

 

[burk48237]

PS.... the tweeter/L Pad, etc. is working fine on the 1212L. However, I too thought Steve's basses sounded very dull through that cab (they also have very dead strings on them). I have it hooked up now and its crisp and clear. I guess certain rooms and basses just don't click with some gear. All is well!"

KJung

The thing that is unusual is the Metro has the oldest strings, I just got it from last owner and it sounded the best with the Schoeder. The bright nickels on the NYC are about 6 weeks old and sounded fine with Jaysons (Vision) Epi, Mikes Accugrove, the big Acoustic and my LDS's. Literally the wet blanket effect with the schro was very noticeable. It think part of the problem IMHO with the Schoeder is the low end doesn't role off, it falls off and to me the effect was dramatic and noticeable. Even my 210 LDS has far more usable low end then the Schroeder. I like the schroeder theory, A strong solid mid range in a cabinet is much more usable then a "flat" studio monitor type cab with a boomy low end which will require a lot more tweaking in certain rooms. But IMHO the 1212L takes it a bit further then I'd like. I guess my taste are closer to Eden XLT type cabs which have a noticeable mid range "bump" versus the Schroeder which is a mid range "projector". Mike W told me Sunday on the phone that if Eden made a 50 lb 410 XLT it would be the worlds perfect cab, I tend to agree. I am anxious to hear mikes Accugroves on the gig though, they seemed to have their own flavor of mid range bump with a lot of usuable low end that should prove interesting on the gig.

Ditto, on the Hang! It was good to see Jayson (Vision) before he becomes a prisoner of love. I forgot how good of player Jay was! I always get a free lesson when I hang with the big boys! Also Thanks for the AC help last night Ken, and the wings were great!

 

[KJung]

PS.... the tweeter/L Pad, etc. is working fine on the 1212L. However, I too thought Steve's basses sounded very dull through that cab (they also have very dead strings on them). I have it hooked up now and its crisp and clear. I guess certain rooms and basses just don't click with some gear. All is well!"

The thing that is unusual is the Metro has the oldest strings, I just got it from last owner and it sounded the best with the Schoeder. The bright nickels on the NYC are about 6 weeks old and sounded fine with Jaysons (Vision) Epi, Mikes Accugrove, the big Acoustic and my LDS's. Literally the wet blanket effect with the schro was very noticeable. It think part of the problem IMHO with the Schoeder is the low end doesn't role off, it falls off and to me the effect was dramatic and noticeable. Even my 210 LDS has far more usable low end then the Schroeder. I like the schroeder theory, A strong solid mid range in a cabinet is much more usable then a "flat" studio monitor type cab with a boomy low end which will require a lot more tweaking in certain rooms. But IMHO the 1212L takes it a bit further then I'd like. I guess my taste are closer to Eden XLT type cabs which have a noticeable mid range "bump" versus the Schroeder which is a mid range "projector". Mike W told me Sunday on the phone that if Eden made a 50 lb 410 XLT it would be the worlds perfect cab, I tend to agree. I am anxious to hear mikes Accugroves on the gig though, they seemed to have their own flavor of mid range bump with a lot of usuable low end that should prove interesting on the gig.

We all hear things differently and the smaller Schroeders can be a little fussy on what head you use with them.... different strokes for different folks

 

[MacGroove]

This is a great review, pros and cons, everyone being honest and as mentioned, we all have our own idea for tone.

 

[Larry Kaye]

I'm a Schroeder dealer as you all know by now.....my experience the other night's gig changed my perspective a little. I was using the 410R for quite some time and bottom line, I love the cab to death, but I just can't handle the lifting of around 80pounds (including casters) or carrying it up or down even a short flite of steps. So I sold it and am using my 1210R now exclusively. I will be ordering a 1212L and a 21012L for demo's around the area shortly and probably will be using either instead of the 1210 R as my regular gigging rig once they've been out in the field on a few gigs first.

Now...relative to this thread. I thought also that my tweeter may not be working properly, both on the 1210 and 410. I had up until last Satruday's gig "given up" using my 31 band eq and sonic maximizer with my Eden 550 Traveler you"all are talking about. I'm also using a 5 string Musicman Stingray with two HH pickups. The bass has NO LACK OF TREBLE, MIDs, or BOTTOM end, but for some reason I wasn't getting the highs to come out like they did before I got the Eden. I tried really pushing the treble on the head AND eq'ing the high eq frequecny really up there, and cranked the attenuator up to between 75 and 100%, and it just never came out right. Sound was still good, clean and punchy, but I like more treble using finger style to get at least a "reasonable" level of defnition too. With my hearing not being what it used to be, I need that extra treble boost to really play my best.

Soooo. I added back into my mix the EQ and Sonic Maximizer and now, again, I have the tone I like. What's weird is I don't have the high end of the eq boosted more than about a +2 and I run the treble boost / cut on the bass flat and turned the attenuator down to 1/2. Run the mids slightly boosted, (in spite of the low mid hump?) and actually can run the lows almost cut completely (on the bass) and my soundman was still complaining about the 80-125 range just blowing steaks off of the table barely in the PA in a good sized room with around 250 people in it.

Although the Eden 550 is the closest I've come in a long time to no longer being dependent on the EQ/Maximizer combo, after running them again for the first time in about 4 months, it just brings the sound of the rig to life again.

Anywho....not only do we all have different taste and perspective on what tone we like/don't like, some of us also add/complicate things (or in my case are addicted to) using certain effects like an EQ, compressor, Maximizer, and many others that really enhance the tone of our rigs. Everyone these days seems to want to "plug and play" with no effects.

For me, even with the infinte options available between the 3 band semi parametric on the Eden and two other bands of eq, 31 bands on the DOD eq, the adjustability of the Sonic Maximizer, and the 3 bands of eq and a 5 pickup selector switch on the bass, my tweeking is pretty much confined to the bass once I get a tone I like. It works in most rooms. cut the bottom and mids a little and add highs in a more boomy room and and mids, lows, and a little more highs outdoors or in extremely dry rooms, but this can be accomplished just on the bass 9 times outta 10.

Look forward to the lighter shlepping on the 1212L and 21012L, and Ken great review, and great comments by all and doing the eq/maximizer thang with the new neo speaker cabs.

Larry

 

[MikeBass]

So, thats the secret then.
31 bands of EQ to make the cab work!!!!

 

[uglybassplayer]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... In many cases it's just a matter of "different strokes for different folks". A few of you might remember back in 2004 when I bought my 1210R, I was looking for a fairly lightweight SS head to go with it. I checked out a variety of amps, including both the WT400 and 550. I felt they were good, but not a great match with the Schroeder. To my ears, the 1001RB-II was a better fit, giving me the tight lows, punch and clear definition in the highs that I was looking for (no 31 band EQ needed Mike ). Had I already owned one of the Edens, I might have been somewhat dissapointed with the Schroeder combination. I just recently purchased a 1212R from Henry (biker4him), and I look forward to comparing it to my 1210 at my next gig. I also bought a Selenium DT150 horn so I can compare it to the P.Audio tweeters currently in my boxes.

- Frank.

 

[Chef]

I'm surprised KJung hasn't said this in this thread yet...but...for those of you wanting more high end, ask Jorg about the optional brighter tweeter...
KJ, it's all yours from here

 

[KJung]

I'm surprised KJung hasn't said this in this thread yet...but...for those of you wanting more high end, ask Jorg about the optional brighter tweeter...
KJ, it's all yours from here

Ha! Actually, I think Jorg now uses the Selenium tweeter as standard on all the cabs except the little mini's. My cabs all have the selenium (H 150's or something)

I think what some (including me at LDS yesterday) were hearing has to do with the head/cab match-up. I'm the first to admit that these cabs are quite fussy with what heads/amps work well. The somewhat mid voicing of the Thunderfunk and Eden IMO don't work as well with the smaller Schroeders as a more GK type voiced amp (as mentioned above). The TF's actually can work well with the smaller Schroeders, but the Timbre control (which pretty substantially revoices the amp) needs to be to the 'right of flat' to bring out more upper mids and sparkle versus the lower mid thing (IMO and for my sound, of course!).

Unfortunately, as Steve and Larry found out, the Eden's EQ does not quite overcome this voicing with regard to the small Schro's. Of course, Chef uses Eden heads with his 1210R and LOVES it... but his tone goals and concept are quite different from mine... so again, this is purely from my 'new round wound/single coil tone context.

My Walter Woods, which is very shimmery in the treble side, and somewhat low mid shy, is a match made in heaven with the 1212L IMO. Interestingly, Matt's rig (1212L/Hartke3500/Reverend) sounded awesome on the gig... and I view the Harke as a relatively mid heavy head (although it's been many years since I played out of one). This again goes to the point that 'on the gig in the mix' can be a very, very different experience than in the basement or in a music store playing solo.

I find the same thing with my HT210s... it sounds AMAZING with my Walter Woods, and IMO not very good at all with my Focus (which I no longer own).... it seems that smaller cabs with a somewhat mid voicing need a little more 'open' sounding head to really work.... but who knows... depends on the bass, the strings, the tone you are going for.

As per the post above again... different strokes for different folks. I would not recommend any small cab to anyone who doesn't mind carrying around a big one. It's physics.... a well made bigger box is going to sound more even, louder, and lower than a small box... period. However, if you are a freelance, regularly gigging professional or semi-professional bassist who needs small (both for schlepping and stage footprint), light and loud, and are more interested in articulation and tight punch versus low end boom, these small cabs are hard to beat

I went through about every 210 cab on the market prior to finding the Schroeders.... some of them sounded 'better' than the smaller Schroeder's at home... some had more deep bottom (like the Epi210UL), etc., etc.... ALL of them folded on moderately loud gigs in large rooms in my experience (OK, the old EAVL210 with a lot of watts into it was pretty darn amazing... but the tone just wasn't me).


Anyway, it's a fun thread, and I feel very lucky to be able to not only play and try some of this unique stuff (Berg 's' series, Berg IP's, Sadowsky 410, Schroeder's, EANL210, Accugroove, etc.), but to actually hear other bassists play out of them in both a music store setting and the all important 'gig with no PA support' setting. Awesome!

The good news is, there is so much great stuff out there, it's almost impossible today to not find something close to the sound you want in a relatively small, relatively lightweight package!

OK... whew.... enough of the 'waxing poetic'... back to the metronome!

 

[Larry Kaye]

I've never owned a head that's "matched up" tonewise with the bass and cabinet of the day, period. I've been using a graphic and or graphic maximizer combination for over 18 years now.

For me, it seems that the head is the main culprit for unsatisfying tone, not the cabinets or basses which tend to be more of the good ole standard P and J basses, G&L, or MusicMan or imitators.

Obviously if one spends a ton of moolah for a WW or other higher end head, the hope, I would thunk, is to not have to use any other signal processing to make your tone how you like it, yes? I'll put up with it with an Eden 550 as it has many other attributes I like including moderate weight, 2 ohm capabilities and underrated wattage/volume.

But I will say, and I'm not trying to be controversial here, if I took my EQ maximizer and my bass, added a WW Ultra and any Schroeder small to large cabinet to it, it will sound excellent......at least to me

Believe it or not , the Eden came the closest to getting the tone I want without adding the outboards, but once I used the graphic/maximizer this last weekend, the 1210never sounded better.

Doesn't mean that it won't sound even better with the 1212,21012L's or the newest 210212 or 412 (have to be L's for my back). We'll go on that adventure later this year.

Larry

 

[Akito]

Awesome thread! Sounds like you guys are having way to much fun!
I have an Eden Nav.+Stewart 1.2 into a Schro 1210.
The thing is, I would love to use more cabs sometimes or really open up my rig, but 90 percent of the time I am asked to turn down anyway. Most of my sound is the DI from the Eden into the PA. I have been tempted to just have them put bass into my floor monitor and not even haul a rig around.
The band I play out with the most has a very controlling sound person who does not get the concept that my rig can drive the room very effectively. It has to be all PA for some reason. It can be frustrating when they keep gesturing for me to turn down and when I get to inaudible they give me the thumbs up! A lot of people don't understand that the bass player wants to hear some note definition, not just a low end rumble. I would love a 1210L or 1212L to go with my 1210, but at this point I would get more use out of in ear monitors!

 

[matrok]

My, you gentlemen have been busy while I was away a couple days.

Well I think in the end it comes down to personal preference as has been stated several times. The tone I'm after is somewhere between Chris Squire on Fragile and John Wetton on the live U.K. disc Night after Night.

I'm giving the 1212L another workout this weekend at an outdoor gig(restaurant patio, no PA support) so we'll see how it does in that environment. If the honeymoon effect is still there, then I'll start saving my gig money.

 

[ballison]

the 1212l and the 1210l seem to be the end all be all of my perfect portable city rig! hopefully, in the next two weeks Ill be able to venture down an hour to the closest schroeder dealer to A/B the two cabs. with what you guys are saying about them being picky about the head, Ill have to bring my rack along with me as well.

 

[bongomania]

Have any of you auditioned the 410L yet? Any chance it would offer more of the "big box" tones without being such a big box?

 

[KJung]

Have any of you auditioned the 410L yet? Any chance it would offer more of the "big box" tones without being such a big box?

I have not heard the 410L yet, but the 21012L matches your description very well.... very big low end, lot's of volume, and smaller than a typical 410 (it's the same size as the 410L)... AND..... around 60 pounds.... lighter than many 210's. The 16" depth makes those 'large' Schroeders very easy to Schlep around.

 

[KJung]

Have any of you auditioned the 410L yet? Any chance it would offer more of the "big box" tones without being such a big box?

Here's a couple pictures comparing the size of the 21012L (identical to the 410L) with the standard 410 sized Epi410UL.

 

[KJung]

And finally, here's the 1212 for context.

 

[matrok]

Well I had the opportunity to try out the 1212L again this weekend in an outdoor setting. On the down side, I did not have my amp to use as it took a fall last week at load out and now is in for repair. I called a friend who also had a Hartke head, only to find out that he now uses an Eden 800. I did not want to sound ungrateful or picky, so I took it.

I did not really have any time with the amp before the show aside from Ken helping me make sure I had it plugged in the right way so as not to blow up the cab or anything.

The first show was Friday afternoon on the riverfront. Big stage(I wondered if I had a cord long enought to get me to my mike stand), no sound check. I found the sound very boomy when I had plugged it in the night before, so I started dialing in some high end. I didn't have much time at all and just had to go with it. I did not get a tone I was very happy with, but I was able to hear myself all across the stage, and still clearly even when I was not directly in front of it.

The second show was a restaurant patio setting, no PA support. I didn't get much time with the amp again as I had to handle a distraught toddler at bedtime, then burn to the gig with very little time to spare. A little more tweaking to get some mids I was missing earlier and then had to go. At first I kept the amp turned down so as not to blow away the tables right in front of me, but I was unhappy with the tone. Perhaps that amp needs to be pumped a bit more, so I turned up a bit. Got a tone I was happier with and settled in for the night.

I spoke with a keyboard player who came out and was sitting at the very back of the patio(long rectangular patio with us at one end). He said the bass sounded good and very clear, he could hear everything I was doing.

I'm still liking this cabinet a lot. Now I wish I had forked out the money and rented a head like mine, LDS had a used one, to get a better feel for it. I love the size and weight, perhaps Ken will let me try it out again when my Hartke is back in action.

 

[Fretless5verfan]

Being that i just grabbed a new Pre to use with my 1210L i figured i should chime in here and say the Fender TBP-1 is an AWESOME match with my little schroeder. This set-up cuts like a mofo without standing out too much. REALLY warm, but at the same time not muddy. Gets an incredibly cool rock tone with the OD kicked in and the Vari-Q mids boosted a bit. Overall, very impressive!!