Schroeder Cabinets ... smart design = very compact ! (regular and lights)

[KJung]

You might hear from some folks here that twice the power rating is just about enough. In any case, it seems to be the case from those who own that (at least so far with the regs) that ya can't seem to fart out the 1212. I've got a 1212L coming, and I can't wait to throw my 2402 at it. Bridged at ~1500 watts should be just enough...

The Schroe's are so efficient, that I would think it would not be a good idea to greatly overpower them, and that there would be no need. It does not surprise me that if you pump thousands of watts into an efficient cab like the Schroeders that you might be asking for trouble.

 

[Guiseppe]

The Schroe's are so efficient, that I would think it would not be a good idea to greatly overpower them, and that there would be no need. It does not surprise me that if you pump thousands of watts into an efficient cab like the Schroeders that you might be asking for trouble.

I agree. I've never had to work my 21012 with much power at all; with 1200w continous (bridged) I've rarely ever gone more than 12' oclock powerwise.

 

[AlembicBob]

Be careful the kite series 12s didn't like tons of juice when they were in my 310212L. You may want to go with a standard 1212, for the extra power handling. I have one of those too, and it's already so small & lite, I couldn't see the neo drivers making that big of a difference. YMMV

Aren't you the one whose speakers blew in a cabinet that was badly miswired? If so, then I don't think your warning would be justified. Attempting to push a pair of out-of-phase speakers to gigging volumes is outside the realm of normal use. A failure under these conditions is a case of human error, not weak speakers.

 

[coyoteboy]

I was thinking more along the lines of headroom than turning knobs to 11 and hitting the strings with a closed fist.

then again, I haven't played through really efficient speaks for a while.

 

[buzzbass]

Aren't you the one whose speakers blew in a cabinet that was badly miswired? If so, then I don't think your warning would be justified. Attempting to push a pair of out-of-phase speakers to gigging volumes is outside the realm of normal use. A failure under these conditions is a case of human error, not weak speakers.

One speaker was reverse wired, but they both blew. Here's food for tought on the overpowering thing. My cab was rated @ 1700 watts, I powered it with 2000 watts. Hardly the 2 or 3 times figures you guys are suggesting. The neos didn't like it. They don't seem to have the ability to be over driven (power wise) like the standards do. So, your "case of human error" holds no water in my book. I'm not saying the neos are bad, just not suited to extreme power applications. A 2000 watt bass amp is extreme by any measure. And, your tone is just a bit snippy, that is uncalled for. I graduated the electronic engineering program at DeVry, so I'm not the moron you thought you were talking to. Check Yourself, Mr. Attitude.

 

[Matt Morgan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the discussion about the blown cab specifically revolve around how both speakers could and actually should have blown due to their counter-acting forces?
I tend to agree with previous posts that this doesn't say much about the speakers' power handling capabilities.
Similar to comparing or making judgements about a V-8 engine's horse-power rating, when the engine has two incorrectly timed or wired cylinders.
I also don't believe that any speaker is designed for "extreme power application" or deliberate overdriving, neo or otherwise.
If you throw 2K watts at a speaker sytem rated a good bit below that, no matter the design, you're going to have issues.
Just my opinion of course.

 

[AlembicBob]

I just don't think it's fair to make a sweeping statement about the capabilities of the drivers from your experience. When someone blows up one of these cabs while it is wired correctly, then I'll accept your premise. The guy that built the cabinet screwed up, it's as simple as that.

By the way, I never implied, said or thought that you were a moron. I just didn't think it was objective to simply impugn the speakers without mentioning that the failure occured under unusual circumstances.

 

[seansbrew]

I just don't think it's fair to make a sweeping statement about the capabilities of the drivers from your experience. When someone blows up one of these cabs while it is wired correctly, then I'll accept your premise. The guy that built the cabinet screwed up, it's as simple as that.

By the way, I never implied, said or thought that you were a moron. I just didn't think it was objective to simply impugn the speakers without mentioning that the failure occured under unusual circumstances.

Lighten up Bob, its just a wooden box.

 

[AlembicBob]

Lighten up Bob, its just a wooden box.

Me??? Talk to the guy throwing around the insults.

 

[John D Harris]

Opinions please!

Would a 1212L be about as loud/present as an Eden 410T? Am I correct to assume that the 1212 R (or maybe even the 1212Light) would be about as loud as an Eden 410T? (That's sufficient volume for my needs now.)

My F-1X/PLX1602/Schroeder 410R setup is just sooooo powerful, it's probably overkill for my needs and back. So I'm thinking of selling my 410 Regular and replacing it with a 1212 Light. For example, on one gig we had 2 drummers, 3 guitars, and a keyboard, all of which were mic'd. I wasn't going through the PA, and the sound man told ME to turn down. Man, what a cab! I just don't need all that volume now.

The Schroeder 410R is a LOT louder than the Eden 410T that I played for years. I know the 1212 would be pushing less air and it maybe wouldn't have the boom of a 410, but the coverage would still be there with 1212, right?

Would the PLX1602 be just too much power for the 1212L? I've got an SWR SM400 also, but would it be enough juice for the 1212L? Although I'd hate to give up my F-1X pre, and I love the headroom of the 1602..... I guess the common sense thing to do would be to turn the 1602 down, huh? But what fun is that? ;-)

Thank you all!!

I think either 1212 would cover your needs just fine and the PLX1602 is not overkill as long as it's used judiciously.

 

[BassIan]

One speaker was reverse wired, but they both blew. Here's food for tought on the overpowering thing. My cab was rated @ 1700 watts, I powered it with 2000 watts. Hardly the 2 or 3 times figures you guys are suggesting. The neos didn't like it. They don't seem to have the ability to be over driven (power wise) like the standards do. So, your "case of human error" holds no water in my book. I'm not saying the neos are bad, just not suited to extreme power applications. A 2000 watt bass amp is extreme by any measure. And, your tone is just a bit snippy, that is uncalled for. I graduated the electronic engineering program at DeVry, so I'm not the moron you thought you were talking to. Check Yourself, Mr. Attitude.

I've already explained previously in this thread that indeed you had out of phase speakers, but the power distribution between them was NOT EQUAL. There were a lot of things wrong with your cabinet, and any one of those things would have caused your problem at WAY lower power levels than you were running. Yes, BOTH DRIVERS can and will blow if wired out of phase. You're lucky the tens were okay! I'll note again, it is not just that one 12 was out of phase. There was one 4 ohm 12 in parallel with the following: the other 4 ohm twelve in series with the series-parallel combination of the 16 and 2 8 ohm tens. This makes for a cabinet impedance of 3 ohms, and VERY unequal power distribution, as you might know. The correct configuration places the 2 twelves in series, making for 8 ohms, then the 3 10s in their series-parallel combination for that side being 8 ohms. Then the 12 side and 10 side is connected in parallel for a total impedance of 4 ohms. So, clearly it was more than just polarity!

As a result, it is not necessary, and in fact assinine that you warn people about these drivers that failed under highly abnormal operating conditions. What did you learn at school that tells you that the voice coil in a neo driver is more likely to melt than any other?

I'm frankly surprised if you graduated from that program that your knowledge couldn't help you fix your cabinet and fully understand what the problem was. AlembicBob was hardly snippy relative to your post. Try checking your pride, buzzbass.

 

[jsbach1982]

As a result, it is not necessary, and in fact assinine that you warn people about these drivers that failed under highly abnormal operating conditions. What did you learn at school that tells you that the voice coil in a neo driver is more likely to melt than any other?

Another angle on this issue: if Buzzbass' cab had the regular drivers in it, it STILL would have failed due to the miswiring. Might have lasted longer, might not have. But the speakers would have blown, neo drivers or not.

I'm frankly surprised if you graduated from that program that your knowledge couldn't help you fix your cabinet and fully understand what the problem was. AlembicBob was hardly snippy relative to your post. Try checking your pride, buzzbass.

Seriously. If you really managed to get an EE degree without a THOROUGH understanding of circuit impedance, current flow vs. resistance, RMS power ratings (the "overpowering thing"), etc., then I have serious doubts about the quality and validity of DeVry's EE program.


-Jono

 

[buzzbass]

I've already explained previously in this thread that indeed you had out of phase speakers, but the power distribution between them was NOT EQUAL. There were a lot of things wrong with your cabinet, and any one of those things would have caused your problem at WAY lower power levels than you were running. Yes, BOTH DRIVERS can and will blow if wired out of phase. You're lucky the tens were okay! I'll note again, it is not just that one 12 was out of phase. There was one 4 ohm 12 in parallel with the following: the other 4 ohm twelve in series with the series-parallel combination of the 16 and 2 8 ohm tens. This makes for a cabinet impedance of 3 ohms, and VERY unequal power distribution, as you might know. The correct configuration places the 2 twelves in series, making for 8 ohms, then the 3 10s in their series-parallel combination for that side being 8 ohms. Then the 12 side and 10 side is connected in parallel for a total impedance of 4 ohms. So, clearly it was more than just polarity!

As a result, it is not necessary, and in fact assinine that you warn people about these drivers that failed under highly abnormal operating conditions. What did you learn at school that tells you that the voice coil in a neo driver is more likely to melt than any other?

I'm frankly surprised if you graduated from that program that your knowledge couldn't help you fix your cabinet and fully understand what the problem was. AlembicBob was hardly snippy relative to your post. Try checking your pride, buzzbass.

Another know it all, heard from. Thanks for that. Yep, graduated with 4.0 GPA, thank you very much. Yep, I don't know crap. Now, the doubts about the neo's power handling came from Jorg himself, when I had the problem. That's where that warning came from. Now, there were 3 or 4 more cabs that had the same mis-wired configuration, NONE of them blew speakers. Just mine, the difference....neos. It was Jorg's suggestion to drop the neos, and go standard drivers. Check your own pride, you guys can't stand if someone disagrees with crowd, right, wrong, or otherwise. Face it the neos, fried, albeit in a unusual situation, but they still fried. I was following my manufacturer's recommendations and had problem. What's really important here is how the problem was handled. And in that respect, Jorg scored straight 10s across the board. That is what is important, not your attempts to start a flame war. Read the tone of that guy's 1st post, he started with the insults and coming off like a know it all. I was just trying to present a bit of info that some may find useful. Again I say it, check yourself.

 

[buzzbass]

Another angle on this issue: if Buzzbass' cab had the regular drivers in it, it STILL would have failed due to the miswiring. Might have lasted longer, might not have. But the speakers would have blown, neo drivers or not.



Seriously. If you really managed to get an EE degree without a THOROUGH understanding of circuit impedance, current flow vs. resistance, RMS power ratings (the "overpowering thing"), etc., then I have serious doubts about the quality and validity of DeVry's EE program.


-Jono

Jono, I know full well how to figure out circuit impedance. I know how a mis-wired speaker can and will act in a mis-wired circuit. Now here's a tidbit for you. I played that cab in the bad config running an SVT 4pro (1200w) into it all night, the night before it blew, and it was fine. It sounded great, in fact never made the typical distorted sound that a reversed speaker normally does. The next night, bigger room, same wiring config, the difference was the 2000W Crown in the signal chain. Again it sounded fine, no distortion, just good tone. 1/2 way through the 2nd set it just died. no noises, pops or anything, just silence. Both speakjers opened up. Mis-wired, yes. But the fact remains that the cabinet survived and sounded great at lower power. It took extreme power to bring the cab problems to light.

Also, the 1st standard series cab I received was mis-wired the same way. Originally Jorg and I thought it was damaged by fed-ex. It turns out that the 1st cab had the speaker also wired backwards. It WAS making the typical farting noise through 2 nights of gigs, powerd by the 2000w Crown both times. Even with the problems, no STANDARD series drivers blew. So you see where Jorg's and my thoughts came from about the neos. Yes, under the large variety of situations, the neos will be just fine. But if you're running gobs of power, you may want to consider the standards.

I've picked up both boxes and the weight savings of the neos isn't as huge as you'd think. Plus, the neos seem to be less forgiving in high power or fault type situations. That's all I was driving at. You friggin' guys jump on people like they just posted naked pix of your mom/wife/gf on the web when they disagree with you. Run all the theory and ohm's law at me you want. I'm letting folks know what happened in a REAL WORLD scenario, not in a sound lab. You're not going to find a bigger fan of Jorg or his cabs than me, I've made that clear in my posts, I'd never do anything to slime him, becuase he's been so nice and helpful to me. I just wanted to raise a bit of a "what if" question, and you guys go off 1/2 cocked. Hilarious.

 

[BassIan]

Another know it all, heard from. Thanks for that. Yep, graduated with 4.0 GPA, thank you very much. Yep, I don't know crap. Now, the doubts about the neo's power handling came from Jorg himself, when I had the problem. That's where that warning came from. Now, there were 3 or 4 more cabs that had the same mis-wired configuration, NONE of them blew speakers. Just mine, the difference....neos. It was Jorg's suggestion to drop the neos, and go standard drivers. Check your own pride, you guys can't stand if someone disagrees with crowd, right, wrong, or otherwise. Face it the neos, fried, albeit in a unusual situation, but they still fried. I was following my manufacturer's recommendations and had problem. What's really important here is how the problem was handled. And in that respect, Jorg scored straight 10s across the board. That is what is important, not your attempts to start a flame war. Read the tone of that guy's 1st post, he started with the insults and coming off like a know it all. I was just trying to present a bit of info that some may find useful. Again I say it, check yourself.

The only thing I can't stand is when someone claims to have an education IN THIS FIELD and yet completely lacks any foundation or understanding in it.

My cabinet was one of the three miswired 310212s, so I know what was wrong with them, and I knew how to fix it - it doesn't take a degree to know that.

I am not attempting to start a flame war, simply telling you that flashing your "credentials" as you did again in this post will not make you more credible, particularily if you are stating FALSE information. I realize you are as entitled to your opinion as anybody else, but because of your experience and now the way you're writing about it, you are dispensing false information about neo drivers. The only point either way is that you cannot fairly state that you had a problem because of the drivers, when clearly there was another, much more probable factor as to why you blew them up. Any speakers would and should have fried under those circumstances!

It's good that Jorg suggested the regular drivers - he knows them and is probably a little bit cautious about getting the neo drivers out there, and rightly so. New products are always a bit scary particularly for someone like him whose main clientile always meets all day long here.

 

[buzzbass]

The only thing I can't stand is when someone claims to have an education IN THIS FIELD and yet completely lacks any foundation or understanding in it.

My cabinet was one of the three miswired 310212s, so I know what was wrong with them, and I knew how to fix it - it doesn't take a degree to know that.

I am not attempting to start a flame war, simply telling you that flashing your "credentials" as you did again in this post will not make you more credible, particularily if you are stating FALSE information. I realize you are as entitled to your opinion as anybody else, but because of your experience and now the way you're writing about it, you are dispensing false information about neo drivers. The only point either way is that you cannot fairly state that you had a problem because of the drivers, when clearly there was another, much more probable factor as to why you blew them up. Any speakers would and should have fried under those circumstances!

It's good that Jorg suggested the regular drivers - he knows them and is probably a little bit cautious about getting the neo drivers out there, and rightly so. New products are always a bit scary particularly for someone like him whose main clientile always meets all day long here.

So, what you are saying is that my actual experience was false. Wonderful. My credentials and my GPA speak for themselves. As well as the hourly rate that I command in my career. You don't get to where I've gotten in a career by not knowing what you're doing. Who are you and what have you done that entitles to to judge others so harshly. True in most instatnces the driver should and would act just as you decribe. But, in a real world scenario, they didn't. Again, you're taking my raising a concern with neo drivers as a personal attack, and you've responded with insults. If you know so much, then why didn't the 1st cab blow with the same wiring and power scenario ? Tell me, lay all that knowledge you have out there and explain it. The neo speakers are not as hardy. Does it make them bad, no. They sound great. But, the diminished power handling characteristics are something that should be considered when deciding on a purchase. That's the only point I was trying to make. Period. You took it to the next level with the insults and sarcasm. I'm done arguing with you. You know what they say about arguing on the internet. It's like competing in the special olympics. Even if you've won, you're still ********.

 

[seansbrew]

All right already enough is enough. If you want to rant and attack one another do it with PM, this is rediculous.

 

[basss]

Maybe Mr Moderator should close this thread down.

 

[KJung]

You can't close the mega thread of all mega threads

Let's get this back on track.

How about.... my 21012 should ship in about another week, as should others... so we will finally get some 'regular' vs. 'light' comparisons showing up soon.

 

[davekoch]

1212R of 1212L?

Dave Koch said:
Would the PLX1602 be just too much power for the 1212L? I've got an SWR SM400 also, but would it be enough juice for the 1212L? Although I'd hate to give up my F-1X pre, and I love the headroom of the 1602.....

lo-freq said:
I think either 1212 would cover your needs just fine and the PLX1602 is not overkill as long as it's used judiciously

I get goofy when I have gas.

Thanks sooo much for your opinions - it really helps. There are so many smart, nice folks here. It's very much appreciated.