Self Taught: Yea or Nay

[mdogs]

All likely true, but not what I'm after. What does your gut say when it hears the words "self taught?"

Being a 100% self-taught musician from a family where my dad and both of my sisters were classically taught, I make no distinction. I listen to the person play, nothing else matters. People who are classically taught believe that is the only way to learn, but I find self-taught musicians are much more open minded about it. I know 2 brothers who are guitar players, both absolutely amazing jazz players. Both studied under Joe Pass and both make more than a substantial living playing. But, neither one of them has an ounce of soul in their body and therefore none in their playing. Point being, in most genres there is so much more to playing than mechanics.

 

[retslock]

I know plenty of very good musicians who are self taught. It’s not an issue. I’m one by the way. I did ok earning a living from music for around thirty years or so.

 

[TinIndian]

Self Taught on Bass but had musical instruction on other instruments before, during and after including trumpet and some piano. All the theory and basics such as reading sheet music came from there. Learning to play bass for me was more learning the mechanics of it and developing my ear.

 

[azureblue]

what is a formal education? Somebody sat down, broke down what has to be learned into pieces, organized them into a series of lessons that begin with the basics and included progress testing. Then found people to pay for it. A person who has the drive, the perception, and the ability to self correct can also do that, and be called self taught. The issue with lessons, is that it is a one size fits all approach. You pick up some information that isn't relative to what you w ant to do. The problem with being self taught is you tend to focus on what you want to learn, and ignore for the time being information from other fields. It all depends on how badly you want to learn, seek out what you need to knwo and drive yourself. Will you sit down each day by yourself and spend one hour on theory, an hour on chops, an hour on improv, an hour on reading, an hour on composition, and an hour on ear training? Or maybe spend four hours a day just playing and learning from recordings, then recording your self playing so you can hear what you are doing? If you have that kind of drive, if you can set a lofty goal for yourself and work until you have achieved it, then you don't need formal education except for occasional feedback to keep yourself on track. If not, if you need guidance and regular feedback, then get an education.

But the reality is, even though you may have a degree, the learning never stops. As my bass teacher once told, "When I die, I want "I can't go now - I have two more pieces of music to learn!" inscribed on my head stone". Ain't that the truth.. Never rest on your laurels..

 

[Doctor Intrepid]

I put self-taught because I never had any 'official lessons,' but I really think being self-taught is impossible. This is because, as musician, we are constantly learning from one another. I may have learned a few things independently, but much of what I know has come from playing with, and observing, other musicians. Even when I learn someone else's songs I am no longer self-taught because I am learning their techniques and sensibilities. The only way one could really be self-taught is to grow up on an island, discover a bass and then start learning it; like 212 I guess.

I'm changing my vote.

 

[40Hz]

Everybody who’s had training has also been self trained. It’s a bogus question, there is no binary.

^This. A thousand times this.

Most things in life aren’t an exclusive either/or proposition.

 

[MoeTown1986]

I am self taught. I learned by mimicking my old punk rock heroes. As I got older I learned all my dad's favorite classic rock songs, then all my mom's favorite old country albums. THEN I discovered Motown. Now, I'm in a cover band that covers all genres and I make pretty good money doing so. I'd say "self taught" worked for me.

 

[brianrost]

I just wait until I hear them.

 

[Gigas444]

self taught is ok as well as "official lessons", but when you have someone teaching you (when he/she is the "right" teacher for you) you can learn faster than you should do by yourself, but too much technical playing can suffocate your musical ideas, so you have to balance between this 2 way of though, IMHO when you find a good teacher there's nothing wrong in attending lessons, but you have to keep your mind in the "self taught asset" in order to let emotions flow in your playing

 

[Robscott]

Depends what instrument. If it's a self taught bass player, my expectations go up. If its guitar player I'm expecting a classically trained player to reel off a lot of shredder arpeggios while I fall asleep. If it's a self taught keyboard player my expectations hit the floor. Why? I've no idea, you asked for a gut reaction, that's mine! Good question BTW!

 

[Robscott]

means about as much to me as knowing how tall they are.

Mick Fleetwood gets in then

 

[SteveCS]

I put self-taught because I never had any 'official lessons,' but I really think being self-taught is impossible. This is because, as musician, we are constantly learning from one another. I may have learned a few things independently, but much of what I know has come from playing with, and observing, other musicians. Even when I learn someone else's songs I am no longer self-taught because I am learning their techniques and sensibilities. The only way one could really be self-taught is to grow up on an island, discover a bass and then start learning it; like 212 I guess.

I'm changing my vote.

I agree, but the end result, being able to actually do something (or not), comes from personal dedication, desire to improve/grow, and ultimately, time in the shed. The decision to go to the shed and the motivation to stay there are solely matters for the individual, IME.

 

[JZQuantum]

I'm self taught mostly. I did have musical training on cello for 2 years in junior high. I come from a musical family, some trained formally, some aren't.

Some are very successful writers who wrote songs for artists that 99.9 percent of people would know. Some only do small gigs for fun.

When I tell people I can't read or write music on paper, but I can write an entire album's worth of songs, it usually surprises them based on what they hear.

 

[Robscott]

There are amazing players who are self taught, and there are awful ones. There are amazing players who are classically trained and there are awful ones. This is NOT the way to judge a musician! But before hearing a player, if you hear the words "self taught," in that instinctual gut-check part of yourself, do your expectations go up or down.

Definitely explain your choice if you want, but lets avoid the lists of names if at all possible. I doubt there is a player alive who would say "all self taught players are good/bad" or "all trained players are good/bad." The examples either way sort of prove jack, and I'm wondering what your gut tells you.

Turn it on its head. If you walk into a bar and hear an awesome player is your gut instinct "self taught" or "trained"

 

[Humbled]

I think in any performance art, surrounding yourself with people who are (1) engaged in the same craft and experienced in it and similar craft, (2) are at a majority better than you at it but also nurturing to you, and (3) managing to get yourself in that situation as early as possible in life, is the best instruction of all. Studying the technicals and mechanics while doing so, of course. I'm not so sure that type of arts instruction can be purchased, and I'm skeptical that there's any substitute for it.

 

[Humbled]

Turn it on its head. If you walk into a bar and hear an awesome player is your gut instinct "self taught" or "trained"

A lot of people are going to say they have a strong hunch immediately, and they could be right.

 

[Robscott]

I'm sort of the opposite. I've played with some great players but the ones who are self taught and have chops are the ones I expect the most from. I expect them to be able to play complicated material by ear, to find and sing a missing third part harmony without coaching, and to have recordings of most popular material at the ready in their own heads. That's been my experience, hands down, with the best self-taught players I've worked with. And they are rare.

The communication issues are an interesting wrinkle. When you're playing from your head and ear, those things just don't come up. Why? Because you already know from your ear what you're supposed to be doing. Clarifying conversations are rarely even needed. Normally if there is a conflict, it's enough to clarify the root of the chord, which is a pretty simple conversation to have. I don't need to hear what chord form it is, my ear already knows where to put my fingers based on what I'm hearing.

Best player I ever worked with had both; was a classically trained guitarist with a great ear and could hear anything in his head that you wanted him to spit out. I sure miss that guy.

I edited this to emphasize chops. That's because I think there are people who go a self-taught route but maybe don't have a very good ear, and these people can sometimes get into trouble. Maybe they think they know more than they do (heck, maybe I think I do, too). As I said in the beginning, I don't judge on method of learning, but what you can play. And once I know you can play, if I find out you're self taught and you're playing complicated stuff, I know you have an ear, and I'm going to expect a lot more from you. That's when my expectations begin to build, but in a good way. I'm excited to find good players with an ear like that, no matter how they got there.

Totally agree with you. I would always prefer to work with a good ear player, no need for any conversations at all, and yes contrary to what some people believe there are players out there who can hear a C#7b5b9 and play it back without naming it (though not many, I admit). Those are the real musicians, and they are pure gold. On the other side of the coin, there's nothing worse IMHO than arguing for 10 mins with a formally trained musician about "whether B is technically Cb" because we're playing in this key or that. Just play the darned thing, then we'll all know! (sorry for the rant, feel a lot better now!)

 

[baldbassclef]

It kindve irritates me when some people say they're self taught, maybe I'm wrong but just because one hasn't taken formal lessons most "self taught" players had someone that guided them. Unless you're isolated from from other players videos internet etc I think it's just a false thing to brag on. Also an excuse for not knowing some vital things they're too lazy to have learned.

 

[SteveCS]

...
.... Unless you're isolated from from other players videos internet etc I think it's just a false thing to brag on.
...

That's exactly as it was 35 years ago. It was me, the bass, a 1984 Herb Mickman book, some useful classical background and a boatload of motivation.

 

[logdrum]

I did learn the bass before the internet and I did not go to a teacher. But I have played/was playing guitar, piano and saxophone already and was hand drumming in an "African" dance troop. Then I heard more of the bass as I listened to music. I could already do some bass lines and was asked to track in a folk singer's album, before I got my first DCI instructional tape. In that sense, I could say I was initially self taught on the bass.

I learned piano as a kid, with a teacher, but all she did was make sure I can read the notes and play them and I did 2 recitals. But no music theory. In high school, did the choir thing but was asked to play piano until they got a better player. That's when I learned how to play chords on a guitar and chords made me interested in theory and I read some books but most of it flew over my head. Then senior year asked to play in the band because someone left and learned the saxophone pretty fast, but it was school property. Picked it up mid college year along with the bass. Someone gave me a book that talked about the modes and scales and pretty much with guitar bass and sax -- learned jazz theory along with Aebersold play along. So no formal college music education but learned and played with jazz guys. That's when theory finally made sense. Then got some education from Indian (Asia) musicians, about raga and tal and that definitely opened up improvisation more than what Jazz could offer.

I guess the OP should have asked, are you formally educated in music or not. But I think when he said self-taught, he meant, there was no teacher to student relationship ever.

The teacher-student relationship/interaction is so different even from Skype lessons, because when I teach (or being taught), I have the ability to view the students body in 3 dimensions in so many ways, see how they are breathing and really get a sense of what and who they are. And the few music school classes I attended in a music college, will not replace reading. Master classes trumps videos.

But in the end. It's how a person plays. I do not care how he/she arrived there.